I often hear that wing chun kicks are “shadowless kicks”. What is meant by a “shadowless kick”? What makes wing chun kicks “shadowless”?
I think it refers to the fact that most lineages don’t chamber the kick by lifting the knee first, this makes them difficult to see as they are not telegraphed in the same way as other styles.
Where the kicks are semi chambered are delivered in a much shorter range than a normal “kicking range” often whilst in punching range which also makes them hard to see.
As the first thing you know about the kick is the kick landing they were referred to as “shadowless” ie could not see them coming.
The above is a guess as I havn’t heard of the term “shadowless” other than in the movies. 
I could be way of the mark as there is a lot of Wing Chun I have yet to experience.
Nat from UK
Yep, thats where I reckon it comes from, but I have nothing to back it up with apart from my own opinion.
In our lineage, there is no chambering at all, the foot goes directly from the floor to the target in a straight line.
The only time I have heard about the shadowless kick is regarding Jet Li playing Wong Fei Hung, with his “No shadow kick from Fatshan!”
I love it in those old KF flicks when the protagonist announces his move before he does it.
Someone on this forum had a great sig a while back:
“Insufferable fool! No shadow kick! Pow!” That made me laugh. A lot.
Certain lineages also weight the back leg 100% which means there is no shifting of the body when kicking with the front leg. I suppose that could be shodowless, although I’ve never heard the term before.
gnugear
Nah. Us 50 50 folks also use therm shadowless and we kick with the front legg just as fast…at least.
Re: gnugear
Originally posted by joy chaudhuri
Nah. Us 50 50 folks also use therm shadowless and we kick with the front legg just as fast…at least.
Im sure you can kick fast, but how can a person with weight on his foot kick as fast as a person with no/less weight on the foot?
What i mean is, in order for you to kick useing your front foot, you have to get the weight off of it and then lift it up. But a peson with little to no weight on his leg just needs to lift it up. Less steps involved. so generally speaking, wouldn’t he be quicker?
Re: Re: gnugear
Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
in order for you to kick useing your front foot, you have to get the weight off of it and then lift it up. But a peson with little to no weight on his leg just needs to lift it up.
Incorrect. One can kick quite easily with weight on the front foot, just do it. If you try kicking into air like this, you’ll notice one problem - if you dont do something to sort your balance out you’ll fall over. One possibility might be to shift your back leg to underneath where your cog is now. Another might be if the foot lands on target transfer your weight through your foot into opponent. Or, perhaps wait until your kick returns, and place your foot back on the ground.
I’m not going to say what i believe the correct way to kick is, or what’s incorrect - try and work that out for yourself. Just try experimenting a little, and escape your rigid way of thinking.
crimsonking, i did what you said. i distributed my weight 50/50 onto each leg. When i tryed to kick with my front foot, i couldn’t find a way to do this without first placing my weight onto my rear leg then kicking with my front leg. So i guess i did run into that one problem you talked about. So my question is: why have the weight 50/50? it seems to me that having the weight 100/0 (all weight on rear) cuts that problem out.
100/0 allows you to get your unweighted leg into action slightly quicker. Maybe quick enough to make a difference.
OTOH, it will take longer to shift weight than it will from 50/50 if you want to kick with the other leg. It’s also more obvious to the opponent which leg a kick is coming from if all your weight is on the other which will improve the speed of his response, perhaps quick enough to nullify the speed advantage gained from the 100/0 weighting.
AS several zillion other usenet and internet forum posts, including one at length with your stylistic “little brother” red5angel of not so long ago, both approaches have their advantages and drawbacks. I haven’t seen a thread yet where someone with a background in one approach was converted to the other as a result of the discussion. I think it highly doubtful that this thread will break the mould.
Atleastimnotyou, you obviously didnt follow what i said. If you stand in 50/50 and simply lift a leg up to kick - you can kick. However, you will fall over quickly after. The next stage would be to find a solution to this problem. As i stated before, im not saying this is the way to do it (or not) - it is, however, possible.
I could simplify the exercise - stand 50/50, and lift one leg up without moving first. Dont kick, just lift it up say 6 inches. You will then probably fall down back onto that foot.
Anerlich, you are correct in every way - however, threads like this can lead to people opening their minds a little - as im trying to with atleastimnotyou. More often than not people who have only been trained in one approach simply dont see how the other approach is even physically possible, people blindly repeat whats been engrained into them by their school without thinking for themselves.
crimsonking sez:More often than not people who have only been trained in one approach simply dont see how the other approach is even physically possible, people blindly repeat whats been engrained into them by their school without thinking for themselves.
True. Listening is an art in itself.
I did what you said and i got the results you said i would get. and i know you said you weren’t advocating this way of kicking, but to me, it seems as if there are no benefits to 50/50. It seems to me that this way just creates more complications. so… for those of you that use the 50/50 aproach, why do you?
0/100 No! 50/50, Si!
Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
I did what you said and i got the results you said i would get. and i know you said you weren’t advocating this way of kicking, but to me, it seems as if there are no benefits to 50/50. It seems to me that this way just creates more complications. so… for those of you that use the 50/50 aproach, why do you?
Hi Corey,
Can you kick when standing in Yi Gi Keem Yeung Ma? That’s 50/50. You can do this in several ways, shifting your weight or not. When you stand in 0/100 with one foot forward, you are not neutral and your vulnerability to kicking attacks is greatly increased. You shouldn’t find it hard to kick from 50/50 if you’ve been training your sets.
Regards,
We kick 100/0 in our sets, so training them would not help with 50/50. Doesn’t the 50/50 stance leave your front leg vulnerable to sweeping or getting kick? Well i know you could lift your leg of move it, but doing so would involve taking the weight off of it first. Also, how are are you vulnerable in 100/0?
Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
We kick 100/0 in our sets, so training them would not help with 50/50. Doesn’t the 50/50 stance leave your front leg vulnerable to sweeping or getting kick? Well i know you could lift your leg of move it, but doing so would involve taking the weight off of it first. Also, how are are you vulnerable in 100/0?
Hi Corey,
If you can kick while in the 50/50 YGKYM, you should be able to kick just as well in the 50/50 forward stance that the others seem to be used to. Timing is more important than the initial weighting. As for the sets, using 0/100, unless one considers the crescent kick in Chum Kiu, you are correct, but the practice of the sets, particularly Sil Nim Tao, build up your kicking ability, and in application, at least in chi sao, you are learning to kick from the YGKYM. Remember, in kicking, if we can use our opponents two legs, we often kick from a three legged stance.
In the 100/0, you have a front side and a rear side. As you step into that position, kickers, say Muay Thai practitioners, will aim the attack at your back side and if they’re good, they’ll succeed. By remaining in, and fighting from YGKYM and not advancing in a stance until you’ve made contact, you give your attacker only one side (your front) to attack, which is what we train to receive. As I understand what Ken teaches, we walk into our opponent’s range; we don’t advance into it in 0/100. The YGKYM keeps us able to make quick adjustments as dictated by our opponents’ movements and energy.
Regards,
yuanfen comments in brackets
Atleastimnotyou
Doesn’t the 50/50 stance leave your front leg vulnerable to sweeping or getting kick?
((Not if you know what you are doing. Any position can be dangerous if you dont know what you are doing))Yuanfen
Well i know you could lift your leg of move it, but doing so would involve taking the weight off of it first,
((Not if you know what you are doing. Can be all one motion-
you just kick)) Yuanfen
Not to interupt the weighty discussion with an attempted answer, but… 8P
If memory serves (and it increasingly does not of late) in folk-lore, the Mo Yieng Gerk (No Shadow Kick) was particularly famous as (one of?) the “peerless” or “special” techniques of Hung Ga master Wong Fei Hung – a kick so fast it left no shadow behind.
In common usage, Mo Yieng refered to a kick that, by means of its speed or its position or some other factor could not be seen, and thus not be defended by the opponent.
It might make more sense when Yieng is interpreted as “impression”, and also when viewed alongside the famous saying: Yo Ying Da Ying, Mo Ying Da Yieng (Have Form Strike Form, No Form Strike Shadow).
RR
Hi Rene
Did you get my email from yesterday? 
David
To the 50/50 kickers:
Do you shift your weight onto the backleg after starting the kick or do you use the forward falling momentum to power the kick through the target?
No Shadow Kick
[SIZE=3]Rene wrote[/SIZE]
If memory serves (and it increasingly does not of late) in folk-lore, the Mo Yieng Gerk (No Shadow Kick) was particularly famous as (one of?) the “peerless” or “special” techniques of Hung Ga master Wong Fei Hung – a kick so fast it left no shadow behind.
From my conversations with Hung Ga practioners on a Hung Ga forum,this kick was normally only taught to inside students.
They advised me that this was the case so I didn’t press for any more info on the subject.
So from what I gathered this is if you like a fairly secret technique,only taught to the inside senior students.