I’m actually curious about the no shadow kick,was this something that really existed and was practised, or is it something that films have twisted around and portrayed as a super human feat.?
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As far as where did WFH learned the NSK. The story was that WFH used Tik Sin and his tiger claws techniques in exchange for the NSK from a Sifu by the name of Sun Fai Tong.
Answer
Traditionally the NSK is not a publicly discussed topic. It is reserve for the “dik Chung” disciples and not to be shown and discuss in public even among training brothers that are not “Dik Chung”. Therefore I will continue to honor this tradition.
My reply
Seeing as I’m not a “Dik Chung” Disciple,I will not ask any more questions on the subject,but what you did say was very informative.
Back in those days a “secret technique” could still be the difference between winning or losing. People were secret to the point of paranoia and if you could surprise an opponent, all the better. Now, with video, internet, etc. there are less secrets/surprises and actual skill is usually the only “edge” that can be relied on.
To put it in a modern context, in some ways its like NHB/MMA. In the first UFCs, nobody new ground fighting, so it took them by surprise and some fighters gave up the instant they hit the ground. Now ground fighting has been spread far and wide and people aren’t surprised anymore, and in fact train specifically to defeat it (Liddel, Cro Cop, etc.) and it comes down to skill (who trains smarter/harder).
Sweep or kick to the knee of the supporting leg. Don’t tell me it can’t be done, because in that case I’ve done the impossible on a number of occasions.
To the 50/50 kickers:
Do you shift your weight onto the backleg after starting the kick or do you use the forward falling momentum to power the kick through the target?
In my Sifu’s academy, we wish to be well balanced on the supporting leg to allow the possibility of multiple kicks with the same leg, or to move back or to the side as well as forward after the kick, etc. Using the falling momentum, per the “falling step” in boxing, kind of limits your follow up options in that regard. With punches, we use the falling step, though not all competent WC practioners do, yuanfen for example disagrees with this approach and I respect his opinion.
My Sifu had a long and successful career in the ring, including several kick KO’s using a fake front kick to the body, popup roundhouse to the head with the same leg. The approach has been field tested.
At my club, we also use a 50/50 weighting for our footwork. I have found that the training methods that we use, to develop the 50/50 weight distribution. Allow you to become very aware of exactly where your weight lies and you become adept at shifting your centre of gravity between the lead and rear leg. A by product of this awareness, I have found makes me quite sensitve to pressure and force on either leg. With reference to the lead leg being swept, It is my experience that the 50/50 weight allows me very quickly to shift my c.o.g and launch a kick.(Buts that not to say i havent been swept or seen my brothers swept either, my sifu and sihings tend to get great enjoyment out of it sometimes).
Similar to anerlich’s sifu, my sifu teaches a fake rear leg stomp kick which has a forward linear approach directed at the knee, which he then pops up into a high round kick, its a beauty to watch and if your reflexs deceive you it catches you nicely in the head.
Originally posted by anerlich
Using the falling momentum, per the “falling step” in boxing, kind of limits your follow up options in that regard. With punches, we use the falling step, though not all competent WC practioners do, yuanfen for example disagrees with this approach and I respect his opinion.
while i use the “falling step” for hand strikes, i rarely use it for kicks (unless my ass is on the line, and i really need to fall into it ), however i do practice it in the pole form (also the po pi section, and the 2nd one afterwards in the wooden dummy we do uses a similar mechanic - perhaps more things do as well).
while i generally feel more comfortable in a 100/0 stance, i think the system teaches 100/0 and 50/50 mechanics.. and as of late i think both are just as useful, depending on where/how your standing.
My Sifu teaches 30/70 weight distribution. More weight on the back leg than the front.
As far as I can tell, positioning, turning and stepping when dealing with an attack means you shift weight accordingly (we don’t just stand there in our 30/70 stance :D).
50/50 is clearly the more ‘natural stance’ - though that said, have you ever noticed how women seem to stand 0/100 with one of their feet bent at an odd angle?
The only problem ‘I’ find with 50/50 is that I tend to rise up and not sink enough. 30/70 keeps me lower and makes me feel (dare I say it if Red5Angel is about??)… more rooted. Though like I said, my moving to use angles tends to mean weight distribution changes from step to step.
Originally posted by anerlich My Sifu had a long and successful career in the ring, including several kick KO’s using a fake front kick to the body, popup roundhouse to the head with the same leg.
Hi Anerlich,
Was your sifu doing Wing Chun and kicking to the head, or was kicking above the waist a requirement of the type of tournament in which he was entered?
I guess I’m also asking what kind of ring competition was it?
Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]Not to interupt the weighty discussion with an attempted answer, but… 8P
If memory serves (and it increasingly does not of late) in folk-lore, the Mo Yieng Gerk (No Shadow Kick) was particularly famous as (one of?) the “peerless” or “special” techniques of Hung Ga master Wong Fei Hung – a kick so fast it left no shadow behind.
In common usage, Mo Yieng refered to a kick that, by means of its speed or its position or some other factor could not be seen, and thus not be defended by the opponent.
RR [/B]
Wow. A kick so fast it leaves no shadow. it must be really fast then. faster in fact, then the speed of light…
In common usage, Mo Yieng refered to a kick that, by means of its speed or its position or some other factor could not be seen, and thus not be defended by the opponent.-- reneritchie
Wow. A kick so fast it leaves no shadow. it must be really fast then. faster in fact, then the speed of light…-- UltimateFighter
IMO, speed alone does not make a kick “shadowless”. As mentioned above by reneritchie, position and other factors besides speed must come into play. What are these other factors? The element of surprise is one factor that comes to mind.
Let’s have an example:
“A” is in a forward stance and much of his weight is on his hind leg. “B” thinks that “A” cannot kick with his hind leg without shifting his weight to the other leg. “B” attacks “A”; and “A” counters with an appropriate hand technique. As “A” executes the counter, he shifts his weight to the other leg and kicks with his hind leg. This might catch “B” completely by surprise because “B” is preoccupied with his hands and may not notice “A’s” shifting of the weight to the other leg. The shifting of the weight also alters “A’s” position in relation to “B”.
Speed, position, and the element of surprise are just some of the factors that makes a “shadowless kick”. Can you think of any other factors?
To me a “shadowless kick” is about not telegraphing it. Whether by visual cues given from the body, or from feeling major changes in the person’s balance (etc..) if you’re in contact.
a couple of you have it right, but some of you are way out in space. If one just thinks about it, a shadowless kick is one where the reciever didn’t see it coming. not cuz it was faster than light, but just because they were to busy getting hit(or some other factor). Shadowless kick? Stop taking everything so literally.
Originally posted by TwoManSaw Similar to anerlich’s sifu, my sifu teaches a fake rear leg stomp kick which has a forward linear approach directed at the knee, which he then pops up into a high round kick, its a beauty to watch and if your reflexs deceive you it catches you nicely in the head.
Hi TMS,
Is this high round kick part of your practice of Wing Chun or are you learning more than one style? On the face, it seems to violate Wing Chun principles, although I know from experience, it can be very effective in a karate context.
Shadowless Kick=stillness in motion. No visual clues that it is coming…body does not tense or change height. Facial muscles don’t clench, arm muscles don’t clench and the torso remains still. Generally it would be a low-line kick to the lower legs. If the groin is the target one would do well to “ride the body line”. It sounds like a fancy term used to describe simple body mechanics to me.
I was watching RandyWilliams’ dummy video; and he applied the shadowless kick on the dummy. His definition of the shadowless kick is, “doing multiple kicks without putting your foot on the ground”. In his video, he executed a shadowless knee; then without putting his foot on the ground, he executed a front kick then a side kick. Another combination would be a high front kick (aimed at the abdomen) and a low front kick (aimed at the knee or shin). He also did a number of combinations using front kick, side kick, etc…
Originally posted by anerlich
My Sifu had a long and successful career in the ring, including several kick KO’s using a fake front kick to the body, popup roundhouse to the head with the same leg. The approach has been field tested.
I successfully used the described technique in tournament and in my school back in my karate days, and as you’ve found, it works well.
I would not recommend kicking above the waist in a real fight.
Just trying to place your comments…is this what is meant by a Hung Gar shadowless kick? I thought it was something else, but perhaps it’s the principle.
I noted that at least as far as the movies about Wong Fei Hung, he wore the long, traditional Chinese dress, so his legs were also hidden underneath, aiding in disguising the onset and delivery of the kick through the clothing.
My sifu gave me a few hints of the shadowless kick from the hung style. He said that it’s when you have the guys hands trapped, perhaps in a chinna, and you are in a position where you can kick him and the guy cannot see. There’s 3 types: high middle and lower. I managed to find out one of the kicks but thats it. He wont teach me yet.
And no it’s not just a really fast kick because the guy’s wearing a long gown or something.kung fu books
IME, Mo Ying Gerk or Yue Ying Gerk in WCK are so-named because either the angle, manner, or set-up for execution preclude the opponent from seeing or otherwise detecting them until impact.
), however i do practice it in the pole form (also the po pi section, and the 2nd one afterwards in the wooden dummy we do uses a similar mechanic - perhaps more things do as well).