[QUOTE=Pacman;965334]i really cant speak for all WC schools. not everyone teaches things the same.
i really also disagree with the premise of ‘rooting’ in wrestling. i wrestled for four years in high school and the internal style concept of ‘rooting’ is no where to be found in wrestling.
i am no pro boxer, but i did box for almost a year before starting WC and the rooting concept was no where to be found either. ‘root’ is not as simple as planting your foot before throwing a punch[/QUOTE]
could you please describe the internal style concept of rooting?
I myself once ran into a taijiquan instructor who could do the things you read about. For example, he once had a number of people form up in a line and push at him together. its looks impressive, but if you know the trick, which is to deal with the guy in front of the line, than like any “magic” trick it loses its novelty.
lot of tricks in martial arts…
breaking a certain brick in a pile…using Qi ? no simply placing a small object under the brick [ marble, washer..] so when you hit it the brick, immediately below it takes the breaking force.
breaking chopsticks held straight into neck …Qi ? no thumb placed under sticks holding to neck, as the other hand slams them [not really] into the neck the thumb of the support hand lifts up and woila !
cutting apple with a sharp sword then standing on it ..Qi …the main body of the swords is dull , only the tips are sharp enough to cut.
etc… but it its all fun for the onlookers
oh yeah the “break a slab ‘o’ concrete on my Qi belly” trick…Qi :rolleyes: the sledge hammer doesnt follow through only taps the slab.
[QUOTE=Pacman;965334]i really cant speak for all WC schools. not everyone teaches things the same.
i really also disagree with the premise of ‘rooting’ in wrestling. i wrestled for four years in high school and the internal style concept of ‘rooting’ is no where to be found in wrestling.
i am no pro boxer, but i did box for almost a year before starting WC and the rooting concept was no where to be found either. ‘root’ is not as simple as planting your foot before throwing a punch[/QUOTE]
And yet, even without a “rooting” concept they are very well rooted for their specific tasks.
I recall when I did my first session of Chen taiji the teacher said to me,
You are already ahead of the curve, you have dynamic rooting", that term always stuck in my mind.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;965467]lot of tricks in martial arts…
breaking a certain brick in a pile…using Qi ? no simply placing a small object under the brick [ marble, washer..] so when you hit it the brick, immediately below it takes the breaking force.
breaking chopsticks held straight into neck …Qi ? no thumb placed under sticks holding to neck, as the other hand slams them [not really] into the neck the thumb of the support hand lifts up and woila !
cutting apple with a sharp sword then standing on it ..Qi …the main body of the swords is dull , only the tips are sharp enough to cut.
etc… but it its all fun for the onlookers
oh yeah the “break a slab ‘o’ concrete on my Qi belly” trick…Qi :rolleyes: the sledge hammer doesnt follow through only taps the slab.
just a few…[/QUOTE]
Kevin, you are releasing the true secrets to the public! YOu are now banned from the Magician Society!
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;965471]And yet, even without a “rooting” concept they are very well rooted for their specific tasks.
I recall when I did my first session of Chen taiji the teacher said to me,
You are already ahead of the curve, you have dynamic rooting", that term always stuck in my mind.[/QUOTE]
That’s all about alignment.
During my trip to Finland this weekend, I saw some Muay Thai and MMA matches - all were great! I saw all the athletes just posting and balance and get their root or regain it.
[QUOTE=chusauli;965554]That’s all about alignment.
During my trip to Finland this weekend, I saw some Muay Thai and MMA matches - all were great! I saw all the athletes just posting and balance and get their root or regain it.
Sometimes the semantics confuse people.[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you mean Robert, are you saying rooting is just alignment?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;965556]Not sure what you mean Robert, are you saying rooting is just alignment?[/QUOTE]
They’re not exactly the same, but a large component of rooting is alignment. When force is being acted upon you, you relax/tighten certain muscles to facilitate your rooting.
[QUOTE=chusauli;965559]They’re not exactly the same, but a large component of rooting is alignment. When force is being acted upon you, you relax/tighten certain muscles to facilitate your rooting.[/QUOTE]
Ah, understood, I wasn’t sure when you mentioned “confused by semantics”.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;965467]cutting apple with a sharp sword then standing on it ..Qi …the main body of the swords is dull , only the tips are sharp enough to cut.
etc… but it its all fun for the onlookers
oh yeah the “break a slab ‘o’ concrete on my Qi belly” trick…Qi :rolleyes: the sledge hammer doesnt follow through only taps the slab.
just a few…[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you can stand on half an apple.
ok, really, the sword cuts on the draw, which is why chefs can slice banannas and hit theor thumb with the knive and not get cut.
the breaking the slab of concrete on the belly is simple-the cement is hard and brittle, the belly is soft and yields, absorbing the impact and dissapating it. anyone whos worked with a stone mason knows how to break bricks by holding them in yuor hand and striking them with a hammer.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;965471]And yet, even without a “rooting” concept they are very well rooted for their specific tasks.
I recall when I did my first session of Chen taiji the teacher said to me,
You are already ahead of the curve, you have dynamic rooting", that term always stuck in my mind.[/QUOTE]
yes maybe they do well for their specific task but their tasks are different than wing chun tasks.
the way they punch and throw their weight into it is different than the way we do it–at least compared to YKS style. in boxing the twisting motion as you throw a punch propelled mainly by the waist muscles. this is why they exercise and train the obliques a lot. you throw your weight into a punch by leaning into it and twisting your waist
in YKS WC the rotation is driven by the legs…legs pushing off the ground which is why you need to root, i.e. direct force from the ground. you throw your weight in it not by leaning in but by rotating as much of your body mass as possible, focusing on the hips. this is why in certain styles of KF training and strengthening of the legs is the main focus (why in the old days they trained horse stance for so long)
this is why in tai chi etc you hear a lot about “total body coordination”. this is the reason their beginning training involves extremely slow movement; they are training themselves to be able to coordinate/align their bodies perfectly.
again, i have to say this because i know someone will completely misinterpret me:
i am not saying that only certain styles of KF utitlize leg strength or body coordination etc. i am clarifying the differences in technique and training methods/philosophies.
[QUOTE=Pacman;965651]the way they punch and throw their weight into it is different than the way we do it–at least compared to YKS style. in boxing the twisting motion as you throw a punch propelled mainly by the waist muscles. this is why they exercise and train the obliques a lot. you throw your weight into a punch by leaning into it and twisting your waist
in YKS WC the rotation is driven by the legs…legs pushing off the ground which is why you need to root, i.e. direct force from the ground. you throw your weight in it not by leaning in but by rotating as much of your body mass as possible, focusing on the hips. this is why in certain styles of KF training and strengthening of the legs is the main focus (why in the old days they trained horse stance for so long)[/QUOTE]To say that Western boxing doesn’t use the legs when punching is plain silly. If you stand on the ground when you punch you’ll be using the legs. You think in all its history, boxing has missed this “trick”?
tyson drove through his legs when doing an uppercut. Did you say the power comes from rotation. How is rotation associated with rooting. I class rooting as making the incoming force into yous legs. This is done by adjusting my weight, centre of gravity, arm position etc. This is the dynamic part people talk about. Just standing when a person stands and pushes means nothing. To fight you need to adjust to sudden impacts can be forward, Side or back. Rooting is about adjusting not just being immobile. What happens when you only root into the ground and he smashes over you. You need to root but only until your structure collapses then you need to step.
[QUOTE=goju;965588]what about when they break the stone over the belly then start hitting the stomach dead on with the sledge hammer?:D[/QUOTE]
no follow through…stop and tap , you can make it look powerful then stop short of crushing the spine
I knew a group who taught their students to punch metal plates on the floor, drive the same black car…qi things, go to their country and pay to stay in qi retreat festivals, called Kateda in the UK…turned out to be a bunch of con men…duh !? you must drive a black car to class lmfao :D:D
[QUOTE=bennyvt;965654]… I class rooting as making the incoming force into yous legs. This is done by adjusting my weight, centre of gravity, arm position etc. This is the dynamic part people talk about. Just standing when a person stands and pushes means nothing. To fight you need to adjust to sudden impacts can be forward, Side or back. Rooting is about adjusting not just being immobile. What happens when you only root into the ground and he smashes over you. You need to root but only until your structure collapses then you need to step.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=CFT;965652]To say that Western boxing doesn’t use the legs when punching is plain silly. If you stand on the ground when you punch you’ll be using the legs. You think in all its history, boxing has missed this “trick”?[/QUOTE]
yeah they are standing on the ground. no argument there. but is the focus to use the legs to shift all the body weight? do they focus on developing powerful legs or the upper body to develop a strong punch?
[QUOTE=bennyvt;965654]tyson drove through his legs when doing an uppercut. Did you say the power comes from rotation. How is rotation associated with rooting. I class rooting as making the incoming force into yous legs. This is done by adjusting my weight, centre of gravity, arm position etc. This is the dynamic part people talk about. Just standing when a person stands and pushes means nothing. To fight you need to adjust to sudden impacts can be forward, Side or back. Rooting is about adjusting not just being immobile. What happens when you only root into the ground and he smashes over you. You need to root but only until your structure collapses then you need to step.[/QUOTE]
how is rotation associated with rooting? if punch by only extending your arm and you are rooted, then you are maximizing the energy from your arm because you structure is solid. you are reducing energy loss on impact because the recoil is directed to your legs and to the ground. but in the end the only “body in motion” is your arm. not much mass there.
however if you can move more than just your arm then your punch will have more mass behind it and more energy. its like throwing a jab while standing still vs throwing a jab while running at someone.
in our WC most our techniques involve rotation of the entire body to maximize the mass behind a strike. this rotation is driven by the legs.
if you do not have a good “root”, you will not rotate and shift your mass effectively. in an extreme example, imagine trying to push off of the ground when it is covered in ice.
? no simply placing a small object under the brick [ marble, washer..] so when you hit it the brick, immediately below it takes the breaking force.
…the main body of the swords is dull , only the tips are sharp enough to cut.