So,
After a very enlightening weekend, I’ve been deeply considering secrets and wing chun.
Some say there are no secrets in wing chun, others have a different perspective.
I am forming my opinion and wanted to get the community’s input.
Thoughts?
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1288562]So,
After a very enlightening weekend, I’ve been deeply considering secrets and wing chun.
Some say there are no secrets in wing chun, others have a different perspective.
I am forming my opinion and wanted to get the community’s input.
Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
Secrets?
Well, never seen anybody with “secrets” any better than the guys that just get in and train, with a good working knowledge of the style of course.
Secrets… ill pass on that
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1288562]So,
After a very enlightening weekend, I’ve been deeply considering secrets and wing chun.
Some say there are no secrets in wing chun, others have a different perspective.
I am forming my opinion and wanted to get the community’s input.
Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
Hmmm. Well, I think there are some tidbits which may not be well known (?). But perhaps a student needs to show loyalty over a period of time (and skill) in order to be exposed them them…?
[QUOTE=wckf92;1288570]Hmmm. Well, I think there are some tidbits which may not be well known (?). But perhaps a student needs to show loyalty over a period of time (and skill) in order to be exposed them them…?[/QUOTE]
That is certainly a way to keep the people’s paying. Just saying.
edit, now I understand withholding if someone is not able to understand or is not physically able to perform them yet.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1288568]Secrets?
Well, never seen anybody with “secrets” any better than the guys that just get in and train, with a good working knowledge of the style of course.
Secrets… ill pass on that[/QUOTE]
Are there any secrets in obtaining what you would consider a good working knowledge of the style?
Are there any secrets left in the style itself?
[QUOTE=boxerbilly;1288573]That is certainly a way to keep the people’s paying. Just saying.
edit, now I understand withholding if someone is not able to understand or is not physically able to perform them yet.[/QUOTE]
Those are 3 reasons for secrets - one we all would consider morally deficient the other 2 we would probably consider good instruction.
Boxerbilly you grew up in boxing gyms no? How did the unfolding of the sweet science work for you there?
Any of the above 3 ways? Other ways?
[QUOTE=wckf92;1288570]Hmmm. Well, I think there are some tidbits which may not be well known (?). But perhaps a student needs to show loyalty over a period of time (and skill) in order to be exposed them them…?[/QUOTE]
You call them tidbits but I’m cataloging a 4th known reason from the community for secrets.
Thx guys this helps. I didn’t immediately think of all these but only 1 or 2.
Any other reasons come to mind?
Any reasons for having no secrets? The other side of the coin?
I thought of one more - competitive advantage.
This would be why Floyds training sessions are closed to public and video.
How does the community view this reason?
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1288579]Those are 3 reasons for secrets - one we all would consider morally deficient the other 2 we would probably consider good instruction.
Boxerbilly you grew up in boxing gyms no? How did the unfolding of the sweet science work for you there?
Any of the above 3 ways? Other ways?[/QUOTE]
Loyalty means **** there. If you are good you get attention and more coaching, lol.
Secrets ? I would say no. Everyone knew what everyone else could do and how the did it. Outside of the gym, you watched what the other guys from another place would do. Because they would all be similar. It was not rocket science. Either you were certain you were going to go in and beat the hell out of him or he was going to give you trouble. It depends if his style and abilities could cancel yours out. I have trouble with guys that could ACTUALLY box. I loved slugger because I was one and I tended to be better, hit hard and more than they could. I also was able to take it better than almost anyone I sparred or fought. I was generally in better shape. Boxers are lazy fu–ucks. We smoked, drank and did drugs as much as possible. That is the truth ! The few that did not either eventually did or ended up a level higher than the rest. They were more serious. I personally never had I want to be the greatest. I just wanted to be able to handle myself on the street.
Now, when I went to California , I thought, maybe I will try pro. I walked into one gym. So all those hungey, we are going to kill you white boy eyes in those little Mexicans, I was little to by the way. And said, Fu----ck that ! So, I ended up marrying one and now I get to fight Mexicans on a daily basis.
Fighting is a young mans game. Id be killed if I tried it now. They are not really any better in general but they are younger, stronger and in better shape. I can no longer take the hits like I could then. Even if I was 100%. That is the secret. Being in shape and training. Getting good at timing and counters and reading. I have worn glasses since I was 13. It makes those things very difficult with out them on. I simply di not have good enough tools.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1288580]Any other reasons come to mind?
Any reasons for having no secrets? The other side of the coin?[/QUOTE]
I guess I’m saying that yes, to a junior student, he/she may think the more advanced topics yet unseen by them could be “secrets”…but time will eventually expose them to a diligent practitioner.
I do however firmly believe that 'lineage/family secrets" exist…only to be taught to extremely dedicated students or disciples of that family. One could easily say these are competitive advantages as well. ?
Dunno, just my .02
Thx
Interesting topic.
First off, I’ll admit I’m not a Wing Chun practitioner (I’m a CLF man), but the concept of ‘secrets’ is pretty universal in CMA in general.
Some secrets are not really secrets, but could be as simple as tweaking a basic move or concept a bit to understand it more and be able to apply it better. Usually little details that are not initially taught to avoid overload.
As for there being one big secret (skill or technique) that would make a superior practitioner, IMO that doesn’t really exist. I have seen some schools of various CMA styles that hold out that ‘carrot on a stick’ to maintain student interest and keep them paying for more stuff. The truth is, the most effective material is what you’ve learned early on and really practiced, drilled, sparred with and made your own. If something is really being kept secret and behind closed doors, then it’s not being drilled and tested openly against all types of people, especially outsiders. So someone who has learned a bunch of secret skills but hasn’t done that extensively will have less practical knowledge and ability than one who’s drilled the basics under pressure. Chaos has a way of forcing people to revert back to whatever actions/reactions are natural, and in MA that will be what is most deeply ingrained.
But TBH, even in my own lineage, I’ve learned some material that I’ve been told not to show to outsiders, and I don’t show them to anyone out of respect for my Sifu. I respect and appreciate that he’s trusted me enough to share these things with me. But it’s still the hard, proper training of the core skills that makes a better practitioner, IMO.
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1288578]Are there any secrets in obtaining what you would consider a good working knowledge of the style?
Are there any secrets left in the style itself?[/QUOTE]
I guess that depends on what you mean by secrets, advanced techniques… sure
Special “secrets” that short cut you to invincibility… no
The problem with the term is that a lot of people will think that learning these “secrets” will mean you can bypass good old fashioned hardwork i.e sparring, aerobics etc
I think boxerbillys post touched on this
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1288585]but the concept of ‘secrets’ is pretty universal in CMA in general.[/QUOTE]
To me, secret is the “most effective method to solve a certain problem”.
There are some secrets in CMA. If you don’t know, you just don’t know. For example, what’s the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1288598]To me, secret is the “most effective method to solve a certain problem”.
There are some secrets in CMA. If you don’t know, you just don’t know. For example, what’s the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?
//youtu.be/LK0Y6wgUsHs
[/QUOTE]
I do not know.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1288597]I guess that depends on what you mean by secrets, advanced techniques… sure
Special “secrets” that short cut you to invincibility… no
The problem with the term is that a lot of people will think that learning these “secrets” will mean you can bypass good old fashioned hardwork i.e sparring, aerobics etc
I think boxerbillys post touched on this[/QUOTE]
Ok advanced techniques one category maybe. Short cut you to invincibility no but how about a more reasonable goal of short cut to good foundation?
I also agree boxerbilly s post touched on a culture of less or no secret training but didn’t know how to quantify or categorize. Boxing openness has closed training for fighters so fight strategy and strengths are masked but the 6 punches and basics are open
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1288598]To me, secret is the “most effective method to solve a certain problem”.
There are some secrets in CMA. If you don’t know, you just don’t know. For example, what’s the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?
//youtu.be/LK0Y6wgUsHs
[/QUOTE]
Nice one John. Yes I know the wrestling equivalent response and yes it is a true/false with what you know equals what you can stop
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1288598]To me, secret is the “most effective method to solve a certain problem”.
There are some secrets in CMA. If you don’t know, you just don’t know. For example, what’s the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?
//youtu.be/LK0Y6wgUsHs
[/QUOTE]
Nice post.
I don’t know what is the best counter to that, but I do have counters to similar attacks/moves, which I’m sure would be very different from your own.
My own definition of ‘secrets’ in CMA means secret within the system or even individual school. Is the attack/counter in your video clip commonly taught and practiced in your own school, or Shuai Jiao in general? If so, it might not be a secret within your system, even if it’s unknown to people outside of your system. To outsiders it would be a secret.
Another example might be when many people think of CLF, they think it’s basically wild, swinging punches involving little or no skill that are wide open to counters. An outsider might be unaware that CLF also uses many linear attacks, and short, close-in movements; nor be aware how those circular strikes are set up to work. To a non-CLF person, these things may be unknown and thus ‘secret’, but they might be common knowledge to many or most CLF fighters. Unless they’re purposely hidden from some students in a particular school and taught/practiced by only a chosen few.
Sorry if I took any discussion away from Wing Chun, but in actuality it’s really not; the very same points could apply to WC or to any MA.
John is the man to ask about things.
Jimbo is the man to ask about other things.
I can tell you how to take a beating. So I recommend them !
I think it is a GREAT thing when people of different methods come together and share. The worst that can happen is you might make a friend. When was the last time anyone did that ? **** secrets !
Ok advanced techniques one category maybe. Short cut you to invincibility no but how about a more reasonable goal of short cut to good foundation?
Sure, we talking a physical or mental thing here?
I also agree boxerbilly s post touched on a culture of less or no secret training but didn’t know how to quantify or categorize. Boxing openness has closed training for fighters so fight strategy and strengths are masked but the 6 punches and basics are open
Well strategy is just that, strategy.
Its just an extension of the punches, defense and footwork.
I guess you could call that a secret, but that being the case, does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a “secret”
Where do you draw the line??
[QUOTE=GlennR;1288619]Sure, we talking a physical or mental thing here?
Well strategy is just that, strategy.
Its just an extension of the punches, defense and footwork.
I guess you could call that a secret, but that being the case, does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a “secret”
Where do you draw the line??[/QUOTE]
Share the secrets. The worst that happens is it makes the next generation better than us. How much was lost in arts because the guy died before he decided to share it ?
All secrets are probably going to be brutally hard work so if fear keeps one from sharing, you really have little to worry about. How many left that do that ?