I was hoping to post some questions about alchemy but I wasn’t sure if I would get answers or just flamed for being crazy or something. Is this a good place for the mystical stuff?
The short story of this is that male sperm is transformed into jing energy which during meditation is channeled up the spine and to the brain (the golden flower) for nourishment.
I won’t go into this practice any further since it is better described by the taoist canon. It is usually taught by a teacher passed on from teacher to student. I’m not sure learning it from a book or a website would suffice but it may.
Hey thanks for the quick answer. I have seen the pictures of the tiny body come out of the crown of the head and read about the tiny body coming out the forehead. In my practice the tiny tody came out my forehead.
My question was are these two different events? Did I screw it up somehow? I was hoping that the forehead emergence was the giving birth and then after the twelve years of nurturing (3 years) and training (9 years) of the baby shen it comes out the crown of the head.
Since the tiny body came out of my forehead in 1994 the twelve year mark is this year and if I screwed it up somewhere along the line I dont know if I have the umphhh to do it again.
Please note that I’m not trying to flame you or anything, but how do you know a tiny tody (body) came out of your forehead?
Please note that I’m not trying to flame you or anything, but how do you know a tiny tody (body) came out of your forehead?
LOL- Valid question and a funny one too.
I felt an uprush of energy in meditation and it felt like I was flying upwards through a dark tunnel. At the end of the tunnel I felt myself coming out of my forehead and my physical body at the same time. I was seeing through the eyes of the tiny body. As far as feelings go it was kinda like if you expand your fingers out you can feel your fingers better and not lose awareness of your hand. I felt myself inhabiting a tiny body coming out of my forehead and didn’t lose awareness of my physical body.
I guess thats the best way of explaining it. I still haven’t decided whether or not it was an objective event or some strange psychological experience.
Dang … I’m always jealous when people talk about their experiences. I was in some Zen group once and everybody was sitting, and at one point this guy started shaking a little bit, and then was just like completely unconscious. They sortof talked him back awake. The old timers there said they were totally jealous of him and said they couldn’t believe it was his first time??? I never talked to him though about what happened to him during that time.
Don’t be jealous. I was turned down for the Catholic priesthood back in 1987. But the “calling” was valid so here I am years later basically living like a monk without the emotional support you get from living in a religious community. On the good side nobody can tell me what to read or not to read so I have a good understanding of not just Catholic mysticism but Taoist, Jewish and a few others. Still when it comes to the bodies it seems information is thin or just doesnt jibe with I have experienced. Bummer…
Well communities have problems. People tend to get their egos in a twist, so to speak.
I have circulated the small heavenly cycle with a woman during/after orgasm, and the two times I did it, the woman had such a rush of energy for the next day, they both asked me if I “did something to them”. I did not “steal” her energy, I simply mingled mine with hers. Evidently, it was liike increasing the water pressure through a waterwheel attached to a turbine or dynamo. It revved them up. Funny, often the chakras are looked at as wheels, which spin.
Anyone else have these experiences?
ps-I know of one guy who used to try to steal his GF’s orgasm energy as well. She caught on, and dumped him. She’s a Taoist, he was into Crowley -figures.
Dang, I don’t get to do anything anymore. You guys have the life. Maybe a bus can hit me on the way to work tomorrow and put me out of my misery.
Edit. Anyways I guess I shouldn’t want that because I’d probably just wind up in a hospital bed with tubes sticking out of me, it wouldn’t finish me off.
But seriously, no, and the aliens never talked to me, either. Why does everybody else get to have all the fun?
Hi DarinHamel,
Keep in mind that the descriptions are merely metaphorical. They state what a specific experience or phenomenon is “LIKE” not what it actually “IS”. The description is not the thing! Do not try to force your experiences to fit into a predetermined form described by others. Each person’s experiences will be unique to them, but are also similar to those who have gone before. The descriptions provided are merely a guide to help identify and categorize inherently un-catorizable experiences.
An experience in and of itself is no true measure of development. It is the transformation of our being, our perspective, the manner in which we view phenomena, and the manner in which we manifest that internal transformation in our daily lives that is the true measure of growth. Pursuit of experiences can become a distraction and may cause pitfalls one must eventually overcome to continue progress!
Experiences are no different than if I practice to perform a backwards somersault and one day when I am finally able to perform one I am proud of myself. I am happy I finally achieved my goal, but in the end it is only a backwards somersault. It does not make me a better person. A skill is merely a skill; it is not a measure of maturity or insight! This is where many who follow such inclinations stumble. Some may confuse possessing an ability or having an experience with maturity and become proud, arrogant or self-satisfied, which are stumbling blocks that must be transcended in order for progress to continue unimpeded.
Your experiences are interesting however. Please feel free to continue sharing them!
Thanks Scott. In my opinion The Secret of the Golden Flower has a section on “confirmatory signs” as do most mystical books because they are pretty objective. Obviously there will be differences like a book describing male puberty. There will be differences but I will be able to tell if I have undergone puberty or not by referencing the book. I do understand your concerns and I appreciate them.
I understand also that a tiny spiritual body coming out of your might seem metaphorical, but thats only until it happens to you. It is also a level of Taoist Alchemical development called “Giving Birth to Baby Shen”. There are levels to these things and we can grade ourselves just like a black belt is more advanced than a green belt.
neilhytholt-I’ve never seen a UFO either.
Yeah, I’m totally p*ssed about the UFO thing. The only thing that I ever ran into was one night I was out hiking around midnight in this big state park after hours (you’re not supposed to go there after dark).
Anyways, suddenly this plane cruised over about 50 feet above me, going really slow, like 100 miles an hour or less, scared the living crap out of me. It looked like an F-18, but it was almost totally silent. It cruised out right over the hilltop and down into the city below. Weird stuff.
Hi DarinHamel,
Yes, I agree with you, internal transformation will likely involve physical changes as well. I also agree that since the subconscious mind communicates with imagery and metaphor these physical changes may be expressed in a symbolic manner within the mind.
What I mean to say is, the lack of an identifying experience does not necessarily indicate a lack of accomplishment/attainment, but neither does the presence of an identifying experience necessarily indicate a sign of progress. An experience is an experience, it is how we choose to define/interpret it that gives it meaning to us and it is this meaning that creates the value of the experience.
The time frame you have indicated for the process you are engaging in should be considered a general frame of reference, similar to an average time period. For some individuals it may actually occur in 6 years while for others it may take 20 years. The lack of an identifying experience may not necessarily be an indication of the lack of your progress, but in the end it is the internal transformation one should be working towards and not the identifying experience. Looking for the identifying experience could indicate that your focus is too much on transient phenomena and not enough on personal transformation. If we place inordinate value on identifying experiences, when they don’t occur we could be creating a circumstance where discouragement results. It isn’t the lack of the experience that is the problem then, but the inordinate value we have placed upon it.
What I mean to say is, the lack of an identifying experience does not necessarily indicate a lack of accomplishment/attainment, but neither does the presence of an identifying experience necessarily indicate a sign of progress. An experience is an experience, it is how we choose to define/interpret it that gives it meaning to us and it is this meaning that creates the value of the experience.
I have heard the same thing from some of my Catholic spiritual directors my entire life. It was the monastics who were more familiar with judging spiritual growth which they did seperate from the growth of the so called “psychic” abilities or events.
But I believe that spiritual growth is as objective as physical growth. People do progress at somewhat different speeds but all growth follows a pattern and the same general time periods as does psychological growth. Both physical and psychological growth have “milestone markers” that you can use to judge progress.
Since we are a unity of body, mind and spirit why seperate the spirit from them and say that it is governed by different rules of maturation?
Scott, thanks for making me think.
Hi DarinHamel,
Thank you too for sharing your thoughts and experiences.
Just so you are aware I am not a Catholic priest, LOL!!
My studies are primarily Zen, Hinduism, Christianity and philosophical Taoism.
Your view makes sense; however it cannot be demonstrated to be universally true. It seems to be somewhat factual for “some” of those following a specific program or system, but even within a specific system it does not seem to occur universally among the adherents. For your perspective to hold true it would be required in “every” instance for “every” individual. Zen is rife with Sudden/Spontaneous Realizations. Hui-Neng, the 6th patriarch of Ch’an for instance had an immediate spontaneous transformation after hearing the Diamond Sutra one time! This would seem to be in contradiction with your expectations!
Any attempt to demonstrate a consistent process would create a dead formulaic system. This is because it would require adherents to conform to a fixed program rather than have a program formulated for each individual’s uniqueness. The fixed program might not actually be the method followed, but it would have to be a fixed system of measure. Once we require conformity, we lose freedom. A round peg is required to fit into a square hole in order for an individual’s unique experience to be held as valid within that system. The individual would not be allowed to interpret an identifying experience according to their own temperament, that is, find their own meaning. They would be required to re-define the experience according the rules of the system in order for his experience to be validated within the system. This circumstance would not cultivate growth; it would stifle growth because unique experiences would be required to conform to an external measure. Those valid and meaningful experiences that don’t conform would be ignored and valuable insight and lessons would be lost!
Buddhist and Hindu literature suggests that successful systems use what are called “useful expedients”. Useful expedients are tools used to transform an individual’s personal perspective from a limited point of view to an unlimited or lesser limited point of view. This is the message of the “White Ox-Drawn Vehicle” metaphor found in the Lotus Sutra.
A man finds his house on fire. He tries to call his children outside to safety. The children are so engrossed in their games and toys that they don’t respond to the father’s entreaties. So the father uses an expedient to get the children outside. He promises them better toys if they will just come outside. Each child is promised a specific toy according to their own unique temperament. One is promised a goat cart, one a deer cart and one an ox cart. Once they come outside the father gives them an even better cart than he promised and it is harnessed to a great white ox.
This story is a metaphor for preparatory teachings that are used to indicate truth in a manner conducive to an individual’s inclinations, needs, temperament and personal ability. The tools of the expedient are to be modified, replaced with others or discarded all together as one progresses towards Truth. Each person has their own unique personality and therefore is best served by a method (useful expedient) conducive to their personality. This is also discussed somewhat in the Bhagavad-Gita.
It is clear that there are somewhat universal archetypes held within the psyche of man. There are common themes found in the myths from every culture expressing universal human experiences. So from that perspective it would seem that your view must hold some validity, but to insist it holds universal validity appears to be in error. Error occurs then, when we require our personal experiences to conform to a pre-determined process that is meant to be a loose guide rather than a fixed scheme.
I have known intimately numerous individuals that possess psychic abilities and had unique experiences yet demonstrated NO measure of personal insight, enhanced development, superior ethical conduct or character. One was an American Indian Medicine Man with whom I was an apprentice for a short period of time!
Your absolutely right (and a million times smarter than me BTW). I think we were just talking about different things. I don’t believe “alchemy” has anything to do with enlightenment or a persons spiritual level even though there are spiritual aspects to it.
I’m sorry, I was using “spiritual growth” when I should have been using another term. I dont even like the body, mind, spirit way of talking about this stuff. I prefer feeling, intellect and will.
-anyway-
My original question was are these two different events? I have seen the pictures of the tiny body come out of the crown of the head and read about the tiny body coming out the forehead. In my practice the tiny tody came out my forehead. Actually it did come out of my forehead again exactly three years later to the day. But the second time it was really wispy and weak.
Did I screw it up somehow? I was hoping that the forehead emergence was the giving birth and then after the twelve years of nurturing (3 years) and training (9 years) of the baby shen it comes out the crown of the head.
Since the tiny body came out of my forehead in 1994 the twelve year mark is this year and if I screwed it up somewhere along the line I dont know if I have the umphhh to do it again.
Using what you know about Taoism or Taoist alchemy what’s going on?
Hi Darin,
I am not sure if you are addressing me here, but I have pretty much stated my view, which is I think you have misunderstood the meaning of the metaphor/allegory. If you take it too literally then you confine your experience to your expectations, your misunderstanding and the limitations you accept. Since you are insistent that your experiences must conform to the system you follow you have artificially limited your experience and are likely to misinterpret the experiences you do have. You seem to have an emotional investment in having this specific experience. If this is so you could potentially subconsciously create an artificial experience or reinterpret an unrelated experience to conform to your expectations.
I have known individuals that have done just that. From their view they have achieved an attainment or ability, but for those on the outside looking in, those with a bit more insight, it is clear they have convinced themselves they have attained something they emotionally NEED to experience. This illusion breeds spiritual pride and is a hindrance to true transformation of being. This then becomes a stumbling block that interferes with any true progress. From my view it could be the seeming preoccupation you have and the emotional investment in a superficial experience that may be interfering with the progress you desire.
No one can make the assessment you request because we don’t know your internal state of being which is what influences your progress. Alchemy is merely a metaphor for transforming an individual’s state of being. It isn’t a physical transformation; it is a transformation of mind! It isn’t the action or method you practice that is the determining factor it is the condition of your mind. Exercises are merely tools used to facilitate this internal transformation. Trying harder or practicing more diligently will not help if your mind is in error. This is why the time period is not an absolute, but merely a general guide. I can say if you view your practice as too difficult to repeat it doesn’t seem worth the effort in the first place.
It appears you are working toward outward attainment rather inner development. If this is the case, even if you did have the identifying experience you seek it would not necessarily mean anything because it won’t necessarily indicate what you think it will.
Scott,
I can’t say I disagree with anything you say. Have you ever had an out-of-body experience though? I had them spontaneously for seven years. At the end they were driving me a little nutty. The experiences I use to mark progress are in other systems too. I would not have taken them literally if they didn’t happen to me literally.
For example, when I heard that the universe was made of living light I thought it was just a metaphorical statement. That is until 1994 when I intensified my Tai Chi practice to end my out-of-body-experiences once and for all. By June I was up to eight to ten hours a day which included Taoist Immortality exercises (alchemy). On weekends it would even extend into the twelve to sixteen hour range.
Then in July 27th on a walk in the woods, my mind exploded into the universe. Looking at the trees did not reveal leaves and bark. I saw explosions of fiery, living, golden light. It began where the seeds sprouted originally. The explosions then flowed upwards and downwards forming the tree. The dark gravel trail became a stream of glowing gemstones. It was like I woke up and was seeing reality for the first time.
For someone who has not been “there” I can imagine why some would think that talking about the world as uncreated light and all connected at soul level would seem like some sort of hazy metaphor. But I have been “there” so I take many metaphors and true and have experienced them as true also, such as the tiny body being nurtured for three years, but then ground to void over a nine year period of “facing the wall listening to the ants scream” and the practice of “being the calm center amidst the chaos of activity” which are symbolic.
Hi Darin,
I am not intending to diminish your experiences or their meaning for you. I am attempting to point out that the acquisition of abilities, experiences and/or skills do not always follow a specific order or time period and have no necessary bearing on ones ethical/spiritual maturity. Some individuals have a greater talent for psychic abilities and experiences than others. Some people confuse psychic abilities and experiences with spiritual development. While some with spiritual maturity/insight do acquire psychic abilities and have transcendent experiences, others do not, may have similar ones, or may have different ones. I have known more people with psychic abilities and experiences or what they considered psychic abilities and experiences with very little maturity/insight than I have known with psychic ability/experiences and superior maturity. In fact most were decidedly immature socially and spiritually! Most of the people I have known displayed a self-important attitude often referred to as spiritual pride. These individuals confused psychic ability/experiences with spiritual development. Their unhealthy attitude impedes true personal development.
The Golden Flower treatise is an allegory that outlines one of the many methods for cultivating spirit (a useful expedient), not the development of psychic ability. It does outline some transcendent experiences similar to those you have had; however the experiences alone do not automatically endow one with spiritual insight or maturity. Information must be integrated into ones being, so to speak, to provide long lasting transformative benefits.
The Golden Flower treatise is excessively metaphorical IMO. The same information can and has been communicated in a much more understandable fashion from other authors. Because it is translated from ancient Chinese many of the allegorical references could be difficult for modern people to understand completely. Some allegorical references in these ancient texts require an understanding of the historical context and culture in which they are written. It seems to be pretty clear to me on its main points, but experience has taught me that when it comes to metaphorical language it is easy to misunderstand a point. This is because culture influences the meaning of its metaphors. What may indicate one thing to the modern mind may mean something entirely different to an individual living 2,000 years ago! Therefore it is easy to misunderstand the author’s original intent when we do not understand the cultural and historical milieu of the writer.
While there is some overlap in training modalities between the cultivation of the spirit and psychic ability/experiences, for the most part psychic ability /experiences and spiritual development may be trained or developed separately. They are not necessarily inextricably entwined.
Many spiritual masters counsel against preoccupation with psychic ability/experiences when it is ones purpose to develop their spirit as it can become a preoccupation that creates impediments to progress. On the other hand, if it is of interest for an individual or they demonstrate an aptitude for psychic ability/experiences there is no need to avoid its development as long as it is kept within the proper perspective. One of the examples I use is the basketball player Michael Jordan. His expertise is basketball and in his day he was arguably the best in the world. His basketball ability is a skill/talent, and nothing more. People do not go to Michael Jordan requesting advice on spiritual matters because of his expertise in basketball. This is because there is no necessary confluence between a skill and spiritual development, yet many people erroneously believe there to be a connection between psychic ability/experiences (a skill or talent) and advanced spiritual development. It is not so with basketball and it is not so with psychic ability/experiences. A skill or talent is merely a skill or talent and nothing more.
I have had my fair share of unusual psychic experiences. I have even had some training as a psychic and as a shaman which are inherently similar. My wife is highly psychic and can speak to the seemingly dead and/or spirits/angels whenever she wishes. Mostly she wishes not to because she finds it too demanding on her. I neither seek nor avoid experiences. I can have them whenever I choose, but I do not seek them because it is a path that does not lead to my goal. When they occur spontaneously they fascinate me and I consider the message they have to teach, but if they do not occur I am not concerned.
The experience you mention is a very profound one and I agree it is similar to those expressed by others. Perhaps TaiChiBob will be kind enough to reprise his somewhat similar experience for us.
It is not my intention to negate your experience or diminish it in any way. It was a clear spiritual experience! However, it is not the experience that is important, but its meaning; how it has transformed your life for your greater benefit that is of significance. In other words it is the information provided by the experience, how you have interpreted the information and experience, and how you have applied the information for the improvement of yourself that is of true value. If it has provided you with no real benefit it is merely just another experience like any other we have in life.
These experiences, for some, do mark a stage of development, but it is not necessarily so. For example, there are those who have had the same experience yet do not have the doubts that you seem to have expressed on this thread. I am not intending to insult you or diminish your experience and I want to be delicate with your feelings here. I am just one person expressing thoughts according to my experiences and insight. It is my intention to help, not hurt. So please do not take offense if I share my honest thinking concerning your experience. It is an experience that seems to have had a very transformative effect on you. You observed first hand the connectedness of all things. This is an experience to be treasured. However, what has it done for you personally? Has it transformed your perspective on life and existence in a manner that has increased your sense of personal value? Has it made you a better person? Can you easily repeat the experience and if and when doing so does it provide you with insights into yourself and creation that increase the overall quality/value of your life?
These are the consequences/results that would demonstrate the quality and benefit of your experience.
I am happy to continue our discussion if you so desire. This is one of the most fascinating discussions I have participated in, in a long time; if you choose not to continue our discussion that is fine too. I do hope TaiChiBob will share with you his transformative experience and share the insights and benefits he has gained. I think it would be of some benefit.