ROYAL DRAGON

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

I’ll agree

The “style” is legit, sort of. Basically, and I say this because were (hopefully) at the tail end of this, Kash advertises Tai Tzu IS Hsing I, Bagua and Taji, and it’s NOT, Tai Tzu is Tai Tzu. Much of wht he is claimimg to teach is Sun style Bagua Taji and Hsing Yi, noit Tai Tzu Kash himself actually broke down admited this to me. Why his is trying to tell me that the Taji goes back to 960 AD. is beyond me, the 36 move form is OVBIOUSLY a modern Yang style short form. But hey, so long as these Kash holes leave me alone, I’m not saying any more and I’m not going to expose them anymore. As for the rest of the board, well, it looks like there are FAR more than little old me pissed off at him for one reason or another.

All I have to say is this, they’d better not come gunning for me again every time some one starts in on them, because “I” have no controll over anyone but myself, and to start taking shots at me for stuff I have NO controll of, is bullshit.

Royal Dragon

Wei, Tai Qin Leung 36th generation Grand Master, inheritor and lineage head of the Chao, Yuh Feng “Internal Tai Tzu Chang Chuan” system.

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

22

Ugh

These guys suck worse than an electrolux vaccum. Has anybody noticed they claim to be “chin Woo”? Gues what they aren’t. They also spammed the internet a while ago to nail unsuspecting school owners into joining. Did anybody else get that email?

www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

23

Tzu Jan

By the way, and I want to make a point of saying this

Edgar Livingston Is NOT, I repeat NOT under KASH!!! Livingston washed his hands of that idiot back when he sold his title and inheritorship to an unbelievably under qualified intermediate student who quite frankly knew LESS of the system than “I” do now!!! Livingston confided in me that “IF” Kash had pulled his title from him and assigned it to a truly qualified individual (And there are some candidates out there), he would have been dissapointed, but not angry or so dissalusioned that he felt it nessasary to walk away from Cloud Forest altogether.

Kash, not only assingned a VERY prestigious title to a practical beginnner in the system, he did it for MONEY!!! I don’t care WHAT kind of Kung Fu you guys do, or What level your all training at, that is just sick and wrong!!

Edgar Livingston has STUDENTS more qualified for Seiberts title that Seibert is, or will be anytime in the next TEN YEARS!!!

THEN for you people to be stalking me all over KFO and insulting me and attacking my credentials and ability to teach what I know AND tear apart my movment and skills when NONE of you idiots have EVER seen me move is just plain hypocritical.

Rank and position in in Cloud Forest is a total joke and a sham.

also, Edgar Livingston DID NOT start under Kash as a beginner, he was and IS a high level 7 Star mantis Sifu, he also has experiance in South Mantis, Hungar, Yang Taji, CHEN Taji and he’s played around with a bunch of other stuff over his 30 plus years in Chinese martial arts. I dare say he’s more experianced and well rounded than Kash ANY DAY!! AND, he does NOT have problems with his “Integrity” like Kash does.

He’s more fitting to head up Chao, Yuh Fengs line that Kash himself is, and it’s a sad thing that Chao chose Kash as his sucsessor. As far as “I’M” concerned Chao’s line died when he did…

Wei, Tai Qin Leung 36th generation Grand Master, inheritor and lineage head of the Chao, Yuh Feng “Internal Tai Tzu Chang Chuan” system.

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

24

**** you.

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

He is a junior to Sifu Kash. That’s why Master Chao made him the 36th patriarch and not Master Livingston. I suppose you’re going to suggest that Master Chao made the wrong decision?

I have asked you to remain polite and not insult my teachers or the school. If you have differences, that’s your business but you have no right to insult anyone. I wouldn’t dream of insulting Master Livingston or his school, I respect my teachers and seniors. It’s obvious you have no sense of respect and you’re ability to communicate without insults is poor.

You have never met Sifu Kash or Sifu Prout. Please refrain from insulting them.

Further more, what is taught at Cloud Forest is the same as what Master Livingston teaches, except for the EXTERNAL southern Tai Tzu. Master Livingston teaches the external southern Tai Tzu in addition to the internal. He teaches the same Ba Kua, Hsing yi and Tai Chi. He also says that the Tai Chi is from 960 AD, just like Sifu Kash says. Are you suggesting that Ed Livingston a fraud too?

Your ego is huge. You aren’t a master and yet you question the keeper of the style. You assume a great many things. How do you know that Bill Seibert doesn’t know as much or more than you?
You haven’t met Sifu Kash, or Bill Seibert.

You are the reason that many Chinese masters hesitated to teach non-Chinese; the lack of respect. Sifu Kash know so much more than you and yet you disrespect him and question him? You are an example of a student not emptying his cup.

Sifu Kash, Sifu Prout and all other teachers of Cloud Forest are wonderful people and I think I speak for all the students there when I say, should you ever pay us a visit we’ll show you just how fraudulent our skills that we’ve been taught are.

You are an egotistical piece of fecal matter.

Please refrain from mentioning Cloud Forest, Sifu Kash, or anything related in the future. Hopefully, this will be the end of this controversy.

Mohammed Al-Gailany

25

Sorry, racism was the reason chinese masters didn’t teach non chinese. Kung fu history has plenty of examples of chinese martial artists dissing each others teachers.

fecal matter? This is civil conversation? :frowning:

26

Ok Tzu Jan, let’s make a deal ok?

First, Seibert’s own students admitted he was only a 2 year student when he got promoted to a 10th degree Grand Master and 37 genration Patriarch of Chao, Yuh Feng’s Emperor’s Long Fist. By that measure, I AM QUALIFED to hold that position also!!!

Second, I question the systems history, NOT it’s movement, wich is very sound, especially if taught by a qualified teacher.

THIRD Livingston IS NOT UNDER KASH ANY LONGER. Kash lost him when he backstabbed the man with the Seibert deal. So don’t tell me Edgar Livingston is subordinate Kash, because He’s NOT.

Now, since YOU guys started this by following me around KFO insulting me, attacinkg me, Lieing about MY skills and abilitys and assasinating MY charecter for a good WEEK before I started to unload on you, and keep in mind, THAT IS THE REASON I’M AIRRING YOUR DIRTY LAUNDRY, let’s make a deal Ok???!!!

This is it,

Cloud Forest will:

  1. STOP harassing me!!!
  2. Recognise that “I” do not controll the forum, and “I” have no controll over anyone besides myself, thearfore, I can’t controll what OTHERS say about you.

The Royal Dragon Kung Fu study group will:

  1. Stop airing Cloud Forest’s dirty laundry infront of the entire Chinese Kung Fu comunty.
  2. I will direct MY students to refrain from doing so as well.

If this deal is acceptable to you, I’ll shut up right now, BUT if it is NOT acceptable to you, not only am I going to continue, but I’m going to start giving your system away for FREE to anyone that sends me a blank VHS tape. I have already had my E-Mail flooded with requests for that, and I only teased about it last time I mentioned it. NOW, I’m dead serious about it.

Well Cloud Forest, do we have a deal, or shall we stay at war?

Wei, Tai Qin Leung 36th generation Grand Master, inheritor and lineage head of the Chao, Yuh Feng “Internal Tai Tzu Chang Chuan” system.

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

27

RD may make a deal with you jerks but I won’t. I have proof that you guys are frauds and if you want it just ask the people at www.chinwoo.com They are actual legit Chin Woo representitives and are even hosting the 2002 world Chin Woo tournament. No matter how good your Kungfu may be you guys are still lying and I won’t make “deals” with people who try to rip me and countless others off. You guys are as bad as all the other frauds out there. Don’t get mad at me just check into it yourself, the info is there for anybody who wants to see it.

www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

28

Tzu Jan

You said,

“Further more, what is taught at Cloud Forest is the same as what Master Livingston teaches, except for the EXTERNAL southern Tai Tzu. Master Livingston teaches the external southern Tai Tzu in addition to the internal. He teaches the same Ba Kua, Hsing yi and Tai Chi. He also says that the Tai Chi is from 960 AD, just like Sifu Kash says. Are you suggesting that Ed Livingston a fraud too?”

Let’s disect this, shall we?

Further more, what is taught at Cloud Forest is the same as what Master Livingston teaches, except for the EXTERNAL southern Tai Tzu.

Reply]
WRONG!!! Livingston teaches what ever his students want to know from ANY system he’s studied over the last 30 + years. I don’t think Kash even KNOWS 7 Star Preying Mantis, now does he? Also, I’ve learned some of the NORTHERN Tai Tzu from Livingston as well.

Also, Kash is teahicng a bunch of modern Long Fist, and “Calling” it Tai Tzu. I know this dfrom E-Mails I have recived over the last few years from current and fromer students of his going back to his Burbank CA. years. If Chao taught the external to Livingston, and NOT to Kash, then Kash should fess up, but he does not do that, he just teaches other stuff and LIES to his students, telling them it’s Tai Tzu external.

Master Livingston teaches the external southern Tai Tzu in addition to the internal.

Reply]
True.

He teaches the same Ba Kua, Hsing yi and Tai Chi.

Reply]

Not so, he teaches those things from HIS personal experiance, some from Chao, Yuh Feng, and the rest from his other teachers.

He also says that the Tai Chi is from 960 AD, just like Sifu Kash says. Are you suggesting that Ed Livingston a fraud too?

Reply]

Livingston has done considerable research into this stuff, infact he’s the one that first discovered the link between Tai Tzu and Six Harmony’s, Eight Methods and the Taji Ruler. Livingston has told me his time with Chao, Yuh Feng was spent mostly training, whenever he approached him for historical info and origin stuff, Chao only answered in simplistic terms and never thoroghly. He ended up actually having to go to Kash, so his original info actually came from Kash. You, knowing my opinion of Kash should understand how questionalble that info is. Livingston always told me this when I asked history of the system

“Well, David Kash says…Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah”.

Now, he’s never come right out and said it, but his inability to put his own name on the history of his own art speaks VOLUMES as to his confidance in it’s accuracy.

I have actuall brought up the idea of calling it the “Chao Family Internal style” as the root is totally different than Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. From what “I” see, only the Taji Ruler and maybe the simple Natural Fist system actually goes back to 960 AD. No way in hell the Taji sets do. and “IF” the Taji DOES go back that far, it’s only the 8 original postures, done in the 8 gates at best, but I doubt even that. Even so, if the Taji is THAT old, it’s still NOT Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, it’s an ancient Taji system. Calling it Tai Tzu is fradulent, that’s why Livingston and I are independantly researching this thing to the core. And belive me, once it’s competely figured out, I’m going to publish my findings. Can’t speak for Livingston on that, but “I” am definately doing it. trust me, I’ll be a much bigger and more reliable authority on the subject than Kash could ever hope to in a life time.

Anyway, you’re not saying anything, does this mean we have a deal or not?

Royal Dragon

Wei, Tai Qin Leung 36th generation Grand Master, inheritor and lineage head of the Chao, Yuh Feng “Internal Tai Tzu Chang Chuan” system.

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

29

Tzu Jan Mustapha said
“I wouldn’t dream of insulting Master Livingston or his school,”

I say:

Interesting, I’m defiantly an outsider on this, but from my perspective, it’s plain to see two things

  1. David Kash has more stink oozing out of more corners of his association than a barn after not being cleaned for a week or two.
  2. Livingston seems to have nothing to complain about, At ALL!!! The man has no dirt what so ever, if he did, it would have been aired by SOMEONE by now.

So basically, you wouldn’t dream of insulting Livingston, or his school because there is NOTHING TO INSULT!!! And if you tried, you’d bet his instructors and students would put you in your place, and HARD. With Kash, all you guys can do is defend yourselves by making up frivolous attacks and hide behind rank and (now meaningless) position. With Cloud Forest, the best you can do is defend you’re selves with spin-doctoring and maybe exercise some damage control. Face it, you guys suck!!!

Cloud Forest is THE Laughing Stock of the Kung Fu world right now, and even Shaolin Do can’t compete!!!

Worship me for I am GOD!!!

30

Oh, John I forgot

What’s the deal with the Internal Tai Tzu now? Is it just Taiji or is there someting else thats internal about Tai Tzu?

Worship me for I am GOD!!!

31

Cloud Forest is THE Laughing Stock of the Kung Fu world right now, and even Shaolin Do can’t compete

My goal has been reached. I think these guys are worse then Shaolin Do. At least Shaolin Do isn’t trying to sell memberships to not 1 but 2 organizations they don’t belong to.

www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

32

Hmmm Chris,

I wonder if attourny’s for the Kou Shou federation and Chin Woo have called them or served papers yet? Good Job!!!

Nick,
Tai Tzu DOES have internal practice, it’s just not the Taji form. I’m sure they’re pretty old, and that 64 move form IS what I would expect form a pre Ming Taji system, and I’m sure it belongs to the Chao family (same family that developed Tai Tzu), and it has probually been taught side by side WITH Tai Tzu, just like the Southern system has, but it’s still not Tai Tzu as it has a differeent root. You have to understand, North/South Tai Tzu, Six Stepp Monkey Boxing, Gun Fist, (maybe) Hong Chuan, Taoist Natural Fist and the Taji system are part of the Chao family fist, a general classifacation of arts practiced by the Chao family over the last thousand years or so. Some of it is more modern, and some I’m sure was added by Chao, Yuh Feng, but much of it is really ancient and rare stuff, and a definate must to learn IF it’s avaliable to you. In fact, I’d go out and say you’d be a fool NOT to learn it if you can.

Edgar Livingston has Infact been doing great research into the system and has uncovered some REALLY excitieng stuff, especially Tai Tzu’s internal practice. The results are not final yet, so I’m not saying anything more, but as soon as he gives me the go to start talking I’ll let you all know what he’s found. :slight_smile:

Royal Dragon

Wei, Tai Qin Leung 36th generation Grand Master, inheritor and lineage head of the Chao, Yuh Feng “Internal Tai Tzu Chang Chuan” system.

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

33

Hmmm, nothing more from the Cloud Forest people?

I take that to mean we have a deal then huh?

Ok, I put my signiture back to normal, and I am closing the door on this one now.

Nutti’n but love for ya, Nutti’n but love…

Those that are sucessful are also the biggest failures. the difference between them and the rest of the failures is this, they keep getting up over and over again, until they succeed. “The more they try, the more they fail, BUT, the more they try & fail, the more opertunity they have to succeed, and succeed they do!!”

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

34

…And so came to pass the end of the first Lineage War… and there was great wailing and gnashing of teeth as pomposity was driven back to the Cloud Forest whence it came…

But all is not over–for the self-righteous shall again walk the internet and lambast those who dare defy their extreme silliness…

35

Boxing is superior.

36

Cloud Forest is THE Laughing Stock of the Kung Fu world right now, and even Shaolin Do can’t compete

I don’t know man, that sounds abit too far fetched( no offense to shaolin-do). What style is cloud forest?

37

Hmm, hard to beat Shaolin Do, although I think Oom Yung Doe does beat them by a wide margin for most silly.

The thing that disturbs me about the cloud forest site is the talk of ‘college’ classes, when as far as I can tell, they are not an accredited educational institution.

Can anyone clarify this for me?

38

Monkeyslap,

The only other dangerous cult that I can even think of that “might” be able to be at the same league with Chung Mo Quan would be the old Count Dante Black Dragon Society.

Those guys were freakin nuts on physical punishment, but again, I doubt they really come even close to the horrors that are Chung Mo Quan.

Did you ever hear that old rumor that there was a bootleg tape going around in the 80’s that showcased some Chung Mo Quan black belts killing dogs in h2h for some super secret test, it was a doberman and from what I heard it showed a Chung Mo Quan teacher, reaching into the dogs anus and ripping things apart, I heard it was shown to the younger students in one of its brainwashing methods.

More than not its clap trap, we all know a Chung Mo Quan man could not kick his way out of a paper bag.

I used to wonder if they were ever a branch of the Korean Moonie cult???

39

Never heard the dog story, though I was once a chung moo quan black belt, and much of what we did in class came straight from a dog’s anus.

40

As for the idea that they were a part of the moonie cult, I’ve thought about this before, though I don’t think there’s any reason to think there was any affiliation. However, there were a number of koreans that came over and set up some really strange cult-type organizations.

Aside from the moonies and chung moo quan, I recall there were a couple brothers, legitemate martial artists, hwa rang do I think, and they got to infighting. One of the brothers ran his school in a very similar fashion to the chung moo schools: open schools fast, use whatever doctrine you can create to convince students that what they are studying is the bomb, even though they don’t get sufficient instruction from anyone qualified, cut out anyone who can rival your authority, if you get caught doing wrong, blame it on your instructors, threaten to take away rank all of the time.

Its like a model for a martial arts cult. I wonder if such organizations already existed in korea, and this is just how they were modified for american life.

The main reason that I don’t believe there is any relationship between these groups other than similarities is that the founders of such groups are too egotistical to hang with anyone else who claims to be jesus reborn.