talking to my teacher last week, he told me that hes worked out that over the 14 or so years I have been training with him I have cost him about 25 thousand pounds in lost income from female class members.
The reason he says this is that after a woman drops out of the class and he randomly runs in to them and chats the reason they always state for stopping training is that they thought that I would breack their arm/left them with to many bruises!!
I didnt think I was being rough.
I’m not doing anything differant to the women than the men.
I have only ever been party to breacking 1 arm and it was 75 precent his 25 percent my fault.
Hes stopped me from working with women now…im the second one in the class that hes had to do that to…for totaly differant reasons.
I’m guessing those women would get their ass beat by a guy in real life too then. What do they expect? Practice how you play… train how you intend to fight. If they can’t handle a guy in class how do they expect it to go in real life?
…must add though that if this isn’t in sparring then something isn’t right. Just drilling you should not be hurting anyone.
I think there are 2 main problems…none of them being cash.
1/ we used to have this really good looking european girl who trained for 3 months while I was off training…then she went home.
Her first lesson back and I’m there…she never came back…and gave the reason above.(she really was VERY good looking).
2/ People come to tai chi for lots of differant reasons, more so than any other martial art I can think of…not all are interested in the martial side. My teacher feels that I should be able to recoignise that and adapt.
“…must add though that if this isn’t in sparring then something isn’t right. Just drilling you should not be hurting anyone.”
No offense, but horse****. Blocking leg kicks and holding pads in drills cost me at least as much pain and bruising as actual sparring. There’ve been several times I was at least briefly afraid of breaking something, and at least one time when my drill partner insists I **** near KO’d him
(Personally, I think he made that up to make me feel better - my power’s not that good…)
This ain’t golf - if martial arts doesn’t hurt, someone’s not doing it right.
That said, you shouldn’t be injuring anyone during drilling, or sparring for that matter. Bumps and bruises happen; breaks and tears mean someone’s being careless.
Originally posted by LeeCasebolt
[B]“…must add though that if this isn’t in sparring then something isn’t right. Just drilling you should not be hurting anyone.”
No offense, but horse****. Blocking leg kicks and holding pads in drills cost me at least as much pain and bruising as actual sparring. There’ve been several times I was at least briefly afraid of breaking something, and at least one time when my drill partner insists I **** near KO’d him
(Personally, I think he made that up to make me feel better - my power’s not that good…)
This ain’t golf - if martial arts doesn’t hurt, someone’s not doing it right.
That said, you shouldn’t be injuring anyone during drilling, or sparring for that matter. Bumps and bruises happen; breaks and tears mean someone’s being careless.
Lee Casebolt [/B]
Well, I guess we just found out why these girls were getting hurt.
Physics gentlemen,physics needs to be taken in account when training women in martial arts. A woman is not going to do much good going head to head against a man of greater weight and strength.
You train a women to be more evasive and in most cases teaching them to run away, Also, you teach women dirty tactics. stuff that a man is not going have the opportunity to do(unless they are h0m0sexual and they are in a position to do these tactics).
You guys really need to get in touch with your local (non-profit organization dealing with sexual assault ans battered womens center) talk to these people, have them give you thier handbook or training manual. LEARN about the law with regards to women and sexual assault, and learn about how women are really attacked out in the real world. I see all these guys out there trying to teach women self defense.(it is quite comical and sad all at the same time). they havent a clue.
we have one womens martial arts school that i know of in austin.
it is called “sun dragon martial arts for women”. dont know too much about them but once i checked out a flyer. they seemed to have a good classes for women.
you cant give these girls a fals sense of security,,most of the time you will run up against the "barking factor" a woman with alot of rage in her will spout off that if a man touched her she would break his nads up in to his throat. but that is not so easily done and when truly confronted with a violent situation. woman will go "deer in headlights".
proper understanding of womens mentality and issues is a MUST. so as i stated before, hook up with your local N.P.O.(non profit org.) and get some insights.
TWS.
you cant give these girls a fals sense of security,most of the time you will run up against the “barking factor” a woman with alot of rage in her will spout off that if a man touched her she would break his nads up in to his throat. but that is not so easily done and when truly confronted with a violent situation. woman will go “deer in headlights”.
Let me think… anti-rape techniques = grappling… but of course no one wants to hear about that. “Deer in headlights”? Well, not if they train to fight through full contact sparring… striking and grappling.
It sounds as if you need to have more control when working with these women,they should not be leaving with bruises when practicing Tai chi.Especially the way most Tai Chi movements are performed.Instead of wondering if these women are tough enough? You should be questioning if you are skilled enough to work with someone who softer and more gentle(but in no way less powerful).Toughness is in the heart and mind not on the outside of the body.Women are different,not better or worse just different which means so is their training.
Well, without getting into the philosophy of this whole debate, I would like to tackle it from a logistical standpoint…to say that you have cost him money by scaring away female students raises a few questions in my mind:
For example, if you had become a Wuss Sensei would you have retained the female students but lost some male students? Could you have catered to the students i.e. being rough with some and gentler with others? Have your “rough” tactics helped to retain other students?
What I am getting at is lets say your classes intimidated 8 girls who would have paid X amount of dollars per month. However, these same tactics attracted 12 other people who pay X dollars per month…you have made your teacher 12X-8X = $4X
One more thing, most people that I have seen quit martial arts give some reason that sounds like BS…oh I was so scared I was going to get hurt, oh I didnt like being around all those sweaty guys, oh my teacher use to pat me on the @$$ too much…hey person who quit: How about "I was too freakin’ lazy and I wanted to stay at home on saturday mornings watching Heathcliffe?
Ya see what Im gettin at?
When training with a partner of any gender (versus “fighting” someone), it is appropriate to consider and scale to their current level of skill and physical abilities.
Our ability to dominate a partner (or assault them, as the case may be) is not the only measure of skill. Skill is also reflected in the ability to control. That is, to control one’s partner, the engagement, and first and foremost, oneself.
There’s a fine line between testing one’s skill and working to improve it. We learn best when we understand the distinction. Finding the balance between training and contest also helps us to serve better as training partners.
It’s highly unlikely that the women are the only one’s offended by excessive roughness; rather they are far more likely, in general, to be honest about their concerns. If numerous people are pointing to you specifically, there likely is a legitimate issue appropriate of some self-reflection.
If your question is as sincere and open minded as it came across, it’s a great beginning toward resolving the dilemma already. Best wishes in your continued training and growth.
I never hit a woman. Unless, y’know, that’s what they’re into.
More seriously, I think KJ makes an excellent point. As a senior student, you HAVE to take responsibility for the newer students having a good experience learning and not pushing their limits beyond what they’re ready for. Women are generally less used to the idea that playing rough can be fun and valuable and rewarding in and of itself, and it will almost always be a longer time and tougher sell to get them to hardish or genuinely hard sparring. I mean, I LIKE getting bruised and sore from a class, even a taiji class. But not everyone is built the same.
I honestly despair as far as working with women goes. In my experience, it takes 6 to 18 months of hard work before they accept that they might be capable of actually generating something vaguely resembling aggression. After those months, they basically finally reach the point that a male of the same build and physical capacity had the first day of class. Then after that they will go to amazing effort to avoid anything that might bear even a passing resemblance to self defense or practical application, constantly trying to modify their techniques in order to take the power out and make them more likely to injure themself than their target.
Why would they get bruises from fixed step Push hands?
Well how do you do your free style fixed step?
We stand facing each other with our front feet over lapping and aim to controle each othetrs hands with an aim to making them move their feet or totch the ground.
Now this can be gentle and carring or it can be a very rough experiance. If you lose controle of your oponents hands you will get a palm strick to the chest, if you over extend an arm with out cpntroling your oponents arms you will go down with an arm lock.
If I am much more skilled than my oponent I can easly “win” with little or no force being used, but if my unskilled oponent lets me stand that close to them with out controling my arms should I not strick them?..what are they learning if im gentel with them?
For us it is a co-operative exercise to develop sensitivity.
There should be no striking involved, NEITHER should there be an attitude of winning or loosing as that goes counter to what I as taught Tui Shou is all about.
This is true for the TJQ styles I touched as well as for all the other guys I talked to.
Yes, you are supposed to unbalance or uproot your opponent if possible, but you should not strike or injure them.
We are taught a progression as follows Tui Shou:
1.) no-step
2.) 1-step
3.) 3 step
4.) Free-form.
From there on you progress into
San Shou(Sparring hands)
which again goes from arranged drills into free-form.
Like I said this goes counter to whet I know about TJQ and what, IMO is written in the classics too.
I was taught that Tui Shou is NOT a form of sparring or competition.
Originally posted by Liokault <snip>If I am much more skilled than my oponent I can easly “win” with little or no force being used, but if my unskilled oponent lets me stand that close to them with out controling my arms should I not strick them?..what are they learning if im gentel with them?
Well, when you put it that way, maybe they will learn even better if you hit them even harder. Heck, if you knock them down or out, training to perfection should take no time at all! :rolleyes:
Again, it isn’t a gender issue. You just don’t know how many of the guys you’ve PO’d.
Well, when you put it that way, maybe they will learn even better if you hit them even harder. Heck, if you knock them down or out, training to perfection should take no time at all! :rolleyes:
Again, it isn’t a gender issue. You just don’t know how many of the guys you’ve PO’d.
Regards,
Kathy Jo [/B]
TigerJaw raises hand
Seriously, those boys are too rough for me. I went expecting to be taught how to root and sence my opponants movements without the use of strength. Instead I got bruise ligaments in my elbow and some nasty bruises on my upper arm. Mind you I am a girly wuss student type.
I think Liokault that your class IS rough but it’s horses for courses and there are many ways to reach martial proficiency. Lots of people are put off by the roughness but then again, lots of people are attracted to it. I know Mark loved it and wouldn’t have been happy doing ‘never more than 6 pounds’ Cheng Man-Ching type push hands.
BTW Please don’t take any of this as a slight. I have the greatest respect for your Sifu.