Do women get the short end of the stick in martial arts?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

I’ve seen men and women training and the truth I’ve seen is that men don’t go as hard on women as they do on other men. This is especially apparent during sparring where hits are delivered with almost no power. And then there’s the breasts factor: Even the cool women, who act like the guys and grunt and do kung fu, get offended if hit in the boobs too often.

If a women has big breasts how the heck am I supposed to not hit her there? Ok here’s the solution: hit her in the head. Then Sifu smacks me for being a d-bag and being too rough.

I don’t think women can adequately learn martial arts in this kind of environment. I witnessed a sparring match once where a man and woman were squaring off. The woman managed to attack the arms of her opponent while the man just blocked her attacks. He didnt attack once. I also witnessed a woman say that she beat people in chi sao because she was able to uproot them. Close viewing of the video recording(if one existed) would show that the men she rolled with did not make one attempt to hit her. This gave her a false confidence.

What can we do? Put women together to train? I don’t think that’s a good idea because then the pattycaking will be doubled.

How can we help women learn martial arts better?

2

First: I think your statements are generalizations and do not apply to all men/women in MA.

Second: Many schools have women-only classes to allow for a more comfortable environment. These schools may also offer them access to the “men’s” ie. regular, classes if they wish.

Third: Last time I trained I punched a woman in my class in the face because she didn’t evade as the drill required. She got upset at me…Told me if her boyfriend was in the class (he is a student too) he would have attacked me. I assured her he would have lost. Then I suggested that she go to the women’s only class.

3

greencloudclf

Of course I’m making generalizations! If I had a penny for every generalization posted on this forum I’d be a a millionaire!

I think my generalization applies to most situations involving women in martial arts. A few tough women that train hard with the boys doesn’t speak for the majority.

I think your third point was kind of aholeish. There’s hardcore training that goes hand in hand with respect for training brothers and sisters. If you had clocked her while sparring that’s one thing but to hit someone during drilling is different. IMO that’s not okay. It sounds like macho BS if you ask me. I don’t know any guy who would enjoy getting punched square in the face during technique drilling.

4

Everything is relative. This girl got knocked the fugg out, but I’d be willing to bet she can handle herself pretty well against your average Joe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivKYP6F1_UM

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;914452]Of course I’m making generalizations! If I had a penny for every generalization posted on this forum I’d be a a millionaire!

I think my generalization applies to most situations involving women in martial arts. A few tough women that train hard with the boys doesn’t speak for the majority.

I think your third point was kind of aholeish. There’s hardcore training that goes hand in hand with respect for training brothers and sisters. If you had clocked her while sparring that’s one thing but to hit someone during drilling is different. IMO that’s not okay. It sounds like macho BS if you ask me. I don’t know any guy who would enjoy getting punched square in the face during technique drilling.[/QUOTE]

In 11 years of training I have rarely hit someone during drills. My reaction was based on my apologizing an her launching into a “my boyfriend will kick your ass” diatribe. MA is fighting, there is bound to be contact, accidental or intentional (sparring). Get over it and move on.

6

I’ve trained with women in both BJJ and Judo. The basic rule when going up against a woman is to use technique, not strength. Most women can get to a point where they can handle strength as well, but that takes a lot of time and workl. Your job as her training partner is to help her get there.

That’s if she’s serious. If she’s not serious, she’s wasting both of your time. It’s no different than when a guy does it.

7

what a dumb topic.

pound for pound few women can compete with the strength of men the same size…it’s in the genetics.

lots of corollaries that go along with that simple, obvious, fact which result in most women not being able to fight toe to toe with men…in general.:rolleyes: of course there are exceptions but not enough for it to even be a topic of conversation.

that’s why, professionally, men fight men and women fight women within a weight class based system.

does that mean women shouldn’t train with men? Absolutely not. Men are who they will be most threatened by physically and they need to get real about the fact that they are going to have to be technically far better to beat a guy of even the same weight much less someone bigger. but, men should not give them a break IF they are of a similar size…a 200# guy giving a 110# woman a super hard time in class is just dumb until she has trained up some…even then, most 200# guys who have trained will stuff most 110# woman even if she is trained…just like he will probably stuff a 110# guy with training…a women who is serious about fight training or self defense training needs to steadily attempt her skills against heavier and heavier guys…but, she’ll probably max out against a guy 20-30% heavier if she has the edge in skill.

that’s why, imho, ‘women’s only’ self defense classes are a very closed loop solution to women learning how to defend themselves. Maybe as a first step to get them comfortable but if they never take it beyond that and really try to ‘fight’ a man of equal or bigger size they are clueless.

8

if hardcore training goes hand in hand with respect to your brothers and sisters, then the same thing applies when you are working with a woman. Treat her as you would a man who you outweigh by such and such pounds. Take into consideration the difference in body mass and power, and adjust yourself accordingly.
“Hok Yun, Hok Yee, Hok Gung-Fu”-learn compassion, learn loyalty before learning Gung-Fu.
If a person lacks compassion and loyalty, then they are not a good si hing dai. They are not a good training brother. They do not care for their trainig brothers/sisters’ welfare, and are selfish with their training and knowledge. You are supposed to help your fellow students develop their Gung-Fu and be a partner, not an adversary.

A good training partner can adjust the level of control and contact to fit the needs of their partner. It is like a volume control on your TV or sound system.

People who say they cannot control this, don’t want to.
People who say they don’t realize how hard they are hitting in practice are lying, or lack the mental, physical, and emotional control to be studying Martial Arts. period.
If you did not have the control, then every time you tried to put a fork in your mouth to eat, you’d impale yourself. Every time you brushed an eyelash from your eye, you would gouge your eye out. And yet.. How is this any different?

An alligator has a jaw strength to snap a 2x4 in half, hundreds of lbs per sq inch. Yet, a mother alligator carries its young in her jaws, and has a brain the size of a walnut!
So, what are you saying?
The student who cannot adjust his mental and physical control to work with another either has a severe mental issue, or a severe physical issue. It is plain selfishness, and ego.

That, and women should wear chest protectors, or protective bras if they want to spar. Getting hit in the chest is inevitable, and proper procautions should be taken. Again-this is a sign of irresponsibility, on the student’s part, and that of the teacher who allows this to occur in his school.

9

my advice:

get over it.

they are there for training, so yes, they are going to get smacked in the head and punched in the tats.

just don’t be a douche bag and think they are the tough guy that can beat up on women. its good to show them strength and what they are against, but don’t be a douche.

10

If I get grabbed or hit too hard in the chest by accident, it’s not that big of a deal- any bigger than if I grab or hit you in the groin too hard by accident. “Oops, sorry,” and move on. It happens quite a bit.

If I got the sense that someone was going out of his way to contact my chest, that’s an inappropriate problem that would need to be addressed immediately. Any of my teachers would boot a student straight out the door for pulling that sort of garbage.

I don’t expect others to “go easy” on me just because I’m female, but I do expect them to remember that they have twelve inches and a hundred pounds on me, and challenge me at an appropriate level instead of simply using their greater mass to pound the crap out of me. There’s just no point to that, for either of us. But it’s not about genitalia. If you were working with a very small-statured male student, you’d have to make the same adjustment. You have to adjust your work with fellow students according to discrepancies in height, weight, muscle mass and experience/level. What is in your pants or theirs is not relevant.

Being that much smaller, though, I have to be realistic that I need to develop and use methods that don’t rely on trying to out-muscle a larger opponant- techniques that are going to WORK against these larger men. I have to learn and practice everything, if only to retain the option of being able to teach it someday- but in sparring, I have to use methods that are going to put us on a more even playing field. For those purposes, I expressly do not want them to “go easy” on me except in the case where if they are higher ranked with more experience, they may have to hold back a bit on that account.

We will hit each other during drills, but only hard enough to show the other person what they need to correct and why. It’s not meant to be a punishment.

I have seen some females that sabotage themselves by only wanting to work with their female classmates, and by not wanting to take hits, and by not wanting to spar.

(The martial arts has something to offer a wide range of desires, and there should certainly be a place for people who don’t want to spar, and for women who only want to work with other women…but personally I just don’t get it. It’s like, “Teach me how to fish, but I don’t want to actually CATCH any fish.” Then if you find yourself in a position of NEEDING to catch a fish to keep yourself from sarving to death, you’re not capable because you excised that critical part from your training… :confused:)

11

In my experience, at the outset women often tend to need more instruction on being comfortable with really manhandling their classmates, striking hard and whatnot. It’s pretty common that, paired up with a female partner for drills or sparring, I’ll remind them a couple of times that they don’t need to go easy on me, and I’ll notice a 50-100 increase without them getting anywhere close to full strength (their full strength of course, not judging other students by my own power standards). I don’t think that’s a female thing; I would imagine, more than anything, it has to do with gender roles actively discouraging women from roughhousing and getting physical in that way. The upshot of it, though, is that even though I try not to, I tend to find myself following suit and going overly easy on female classmates.

Now, all that said, before today’s class I was pulled aside by my sifu to be a practice dummy for the women in the advanced class who were working on a shoulder throw, and all of them nearly pulled my friggin’ arm off. :eek:

ps. Oh, and to correct a point Oso made, the strength disparity between men and women is not genetic. It’s hormonal. I can’t find the guy’s pictures right now but there was a transsexual man (genetically female) who, after starting hormone therapy, started bodybuidling, and you absolutely cannot tell he’s not a genetically male bodybuilder.

12

The upshot of it, though, is that even though I try not to, I tend to find myself following suit and going overly easy on female classmates.

Good communication is really important. I will usually go ahead and hit pretty hard, but I’ll tell the classmate, “Let me know if I’m hitting you too hard, okay?” Then I cease worrying about it, trusting that they will tell me. I have one female classmate that I just get the vibe- can’t pinpoint why- that she wouldn’t communicate it well. Thus I tend to be easier on her, and I’m just not really comfortable working with her in general because I feel like I can’t really trust her to communicate what she needs from me.

13

[QUOTE=GreenCloudCLF;914457]My reaction was based on my apologizing an her launching into a “[SIZE=“3”]my boyfriend will kick your ass[/SIZE]” diatribe. [/quote]he probably would. :stuck_out_tongue:

MA is fighting, there is bound to be contact, accidental or intentional (sparring).
yeah i’d say getting hit would be an accidental, non-intentional act of not blocking.

Get over it and move on.
just watch where you are moving to so you don’t trip yourself up. :smiley:

as for women in martial arts… it all comes down to the woman in question. i teach my daughters to headbutt. :slight_smile:

14

RT: of course it’s hormonal but the reason women’s hormones are distributed the way they are is due to genetic coding, right? Women have testosterone in their bodies but not as much because they are designed differently than men.

I have seen some females that sabotage themselves by only wanting to work with their female classmates, and by not wanting to take hits, and by not wanting to spar.

(The martial arts has something to offer a wide range of desires, and there should certainly be a place for people who don’t want to spar, and for women who only want to work with other women…but personally I just don’t get it. It’s like, “Teach me how to fish, but I don’t want to actually CATCH any fish.” Then if you find yourself in a position of NEEDING to catch a fish to keep yourself from sarving to death, you’re not capable because you excised that critical part from your training… )

well said.

15

[QUOTE=GreenCloudCLF;914450]First: I think your statements are generalizations and do not apply to all men/women in MA.

Second: Many schools have women-only classes to allow for a more comfortable environment. These schools may also offer them access to the “men’s” ie. regular, classes if they wish.

Third: Last time I trained I punched a woman in my class in the face because she didn’t evade as the drill required. She got upset at me…Told me if her boyfriend was in the class (he is a student too) he would have attacked me. I assured her he would have lost. Then I suggested that she go to the women’s only class.[/QUOTE]

how hard did you punch her

i think its fair if someones doing the drill wrong and you show her what happens when you do it wrong in real life (without causing unnneccesary pain obviously)

she’s completely out of line, i’ve been tagged by people teaching me for getting it wrong its good it gives you a reason not to get it wrong again!

and for her to have the cheek of saying i’l get my boyfriend to beat you up is exactly the wrong kind of attitude to have in any MA class, thigns do t go your way so you run and get someone bigger to do your dirty work? i hate that kind of attitude in women (where it seems to be most prevalent)

16

In regards to training: There is NO gender.
In regards to competition and Ego: There IS gender.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;914549]In regards to training: There is NO gender.
In regards to competition and Ego: There IS gender.[/QUOTE]

There IS size differentiation even in training.

Women, just like men, should generally train with a range of partners of all sizes. But regular (say, 80% of the time) training will fall within a group of partners that are probably within a +/-30% size range. Everyone should train occasionally with bigger (and faster and stronger, etc) people to figure out how many of thier tools are just NOT going to work so they can devise a strategy for how to handle that big mf it it comes down…like, ‘I must spend at least one day training sprints’ :smiley:

18

[QUOTE=Oso;914552]There IS size differentiation even in training.

Women, just like men, should generally train with a range of partners of all sizes. But regular (say, 80% of the time) training will fall within a group of partners that are probably within a +/-30% size range. Everyone should train occasionally with bigger (and faster and stronger, etc) people to figure out how many of thier tools are just NOT going to work so they can devise a strategy for how to handle that big mf it it comes down…like, ‘I must spend at least one day training sprints’ :D[/QUOTE]

Size difference is irrelevant to MA training, though relevant to sport training since you will be, typically, fighting in a weight category.
I usually advocate people train with the “biggest and meanest” people they can find :wink:
But don’t neglect training with smaller and more technical fighters too, you will learn a great deal being the “bigger person”.

19

i don’t agree. you will not spend all, or even most, of your time training with someone but so much bigger than you. I gave percentages for time and size that are certainly approximate but are what I would recommend as a baseline for splitting up training time.

I do agree that one should always try to find ‘mean’ people to train with but would rather use ‘impersonal’ as in they only want to train as hard as they can and will always train hard and when sparring have full intent while maintaining safe levels of power.

20

[QUOTE=Oso;914558]i don’t agree. you will not spend all, or even most, of your time training with someone but so much bigger than you. I gave percentages for time and size that are certainly approximate but are what I would recommend as a baseline for splitting up training time.

I do agree that one should always try to find ‘mean’ people to train with but would rather use ‘impersonal’ as in they only want to train as hard as they can and will always train hard and when sparring have full intent while maintaining safe levels of power.[/QUOTE]

If a person lives in a community in which 80% of the people are bigger than they are, they should train with bigger people as much as possible.
Women even more so.