For Women Only

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

I would like to hear from our Si-Moi’s and Si-Jays as to what attracts women to train in Wing Chun.

We started out in what I will refer to as “the garage” back in 2000, no windows on a 19’ by 60’ concrete floor. The building was tucked away behind a popular restaurant in town. Although it was clean, it was more like a “Marvin Hagler” environement. We were there until July of 2002. During this time, we had 3 female students join . We have since moved to a location on the main street of the town and have wooden floors, mirrors and a more professional looking 1200 square foot training area. We are about to get our first female student at this facility this weekend.

We have had over 90 students to date with less than 10 of them being women. We keep a database of inquiries and I have about 15 or so I would like to call on. I am looking for some ideas that might attract them.

Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?

How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?

Please also list specifics in regard to turn ons and turn offs that keep you training or make you decide to leave.

Thanks

Good Luck in your Kung Fu!

2

Hi Lindley,
I will answer your questions as best I can from my own perspective.

I would like to hear from our Si-Moi’s and Si-Jays as to what attracts women to train in Wing Chun.

For me it was wanting to lose weight, get fit, self-defence, be a better part of my spouses world, be a good example for my children (life does not end in your 30’s it begins lol). The fact that I was already exposed (outsider looking in) to various martial art styles made the decision to choose Wing Chun an easy one. Seeing the comparisons of the effectiveness…the visuals of that…made the difference.

Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?

For me personally it doesn’t. I am aware of other women who do prefer all women classes rather than co-ed classes for gyms and such though. I think it depends largely on the reception they receive within the class. I know I would personally be offended if I was not taken, or percieved not to be taken, as seriously as my kung fu brothers. An example might be if my Sifu didn’t give me as much insight as he did with my male counterparts (blew me off more consistantly for lack of a better term). I feel my willingness to remain part of the class/school would reflect how I was received and responded to by the class/school. Another point on that note is that when women go to train they are just as serious and intent about it as men are (even though their reasoning behind it may or may not differ). To be not treated with the same respect (being judged and stereo-typed) in any regard would be offensive and cause to seek a more comfortable and adaptive environment.

How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?

Only in that it would make me wonder why women were not wanting to be a part of that school. This certainly wouldn’t imply that I thought the school had a problem. I am sure many from this forum can attest that women are largely outnumbered in this art. I think it is because ‘kung fu’ in general is perceived by the non martial art world to be much more hard core than some other more ‘gentle, flowery’ arts.

Specifically the turn ons are:

-Physical Fitness that is enjoyable (lol ok mostly)
-Ability to defend against attackers that are much bigger and stronger, a deep feeling of personal security is HUGE to me and I suspect most women.
-Respect, dedication, knowledge, patience, praise and constructive criticism from my Sifu.

Specifically the turn offs are:

Haven’t had any yet, but the things I mentioned hypothetically at the beginning of my reply would certainly fit the turn off description. Anything that was opposite to the turn on portion of my reply would be a turn off lol.

Thank you for starting this thread it was fun to respond to something that I actually have some deep insight to :wink:
All the best in your endeavors with your school,
Vicky

3

Re: For Women Only

Originally posted by Lindley
[B]I would like to hear from our Si-Moi’s and Si-Jays as to what attracts women to train in Wing Chun.

We started out in what I will refer to as “the garage” back in 2000, no windows on a 19’ by 60’ concrete floor. The building was tucked away behind a popular restaurant in town. Although it was clean, it was more like a “Marvin Hagler” environement. We were there until July of 2002. During this time, we had 3 female students join . We have since moved to a location on the main street of the town and have wooden floors, mirrors and a more professional looking 1200 square foot training area. We are about to get our first female student at this facility this weekend.

We have had over 90 students to date with less than 10 of them being women. We keep a database of inquiries and I have about 15 or so I would like to call on. I am looking for some ideas that might attract them.[/B]

An insightful way to examine the question may be to explore through another question: Why an interest in attracting women students? Are there particular benefits for them? For the school? For the art? What, if anything, might be different with a larger proportion of women in the class? How would they be received? Just food for thought stuff.


Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?

Based on how this is phrased, not entirely sure I’m clear on the question. If the question is about whether or not an all women’s class is favored over a co-ed class, I definitely and distinctly prefer the latter.

The only reasons I can remotely fathom myself being a supporter of all-women’s classes are:

a) As a temporary remedial alternative for women with some kind of "issues.” This, by the way, is not my area of greatest energy, especially as it may imply something outside the direct realm of Wing Chun that needs to be dealt with. Possibly with the aid of professionals; social work and psychotherapy, as examples, are entirely separate issues from training in Wing Chun, IMHO. Being qualified to teach or coach or simply share in Wing Chun does not automatically qualify us in other areas.

Segregating women for the duration of their training won’t help them to face the challenges of reality or achieve their highest levels of excellence. For this and other reasons, I’m a bit hardpressed to support even this type of reasoning for a women’s only class. I only hedge on the side of open mindedness because I do realize that women (and men) sometimes have legitimate “issues” to deal with and overcome, which shouldn’t necessarily preclude their opportunity to learn and train. Still, my general take (exceptions aside) is that when it comes to Wing Chun class or training in general, “issues” are better left at the door along with egos and other baggage.

I realize I’m not the best candidate for the “Ms. Sensitivity” award, LOL. Perhaps I maintain a bit too strict a focus on the training as opposed to the human side of things at times. Too bad. :wink:

b) To provide reasonable and serious women some relief and a venue apart from an overly machismo, irrational, or unproductive training environment. In which case any rational and balanced men who deserve some relief and an improved training environment should also be welcomed, IMHO. In general, this is the only legitimate excuse I would support, and then only under extenuating circumstances. But even this is more a matter of maturity and reasonableness in training than a gender issue.

Fortunately, neither of these (“a” or “b”) are or have been issues for me.

c) An option I’ve never pursued, but have given consideration to, is an occasional “women’s training day.” I don’t see a need or overriding benefit for a steady diet of this. However, since we women do share some particular issues and concerns in common with respect to training, self-defense, etc., this might provide some value, and could allow us a more open opportunity to exchange on things of particular relevance and importance to us. The kinds of concerns which tend to get drowned in the more usual and exciting din about MMA, bar room brawls, who-can-beat-who, who-can-beat-everyone, what-if scenarios, etc., LOL.


How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?

There have been times when I was the only female, and even now during many individual classes I still am. It doesn’t really affect me one way or the other, as long as the people I am working with are mature and serious. That is not at all to imply that I don’t enjoy a wicked sense of humor. :wink: Seriousness and humor don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

There have been a few occasions when a younger or older male has come to the class with “issues” of their own regarding females in general, females of my age and stature, or just me in particular, LOL. Fortunately, we’ve thus far been able to manage through those well enough.

Please also list specifics in regard to turn ons and turn offs that keep you training or make you decide to leave.

Some Turn Ons:

  • A rational, serious, and mature training culture and environment, including considerations for safety and overall well-being
  • A capable and credible instructor
  • Adult classes
  • A training methodology suitable and practical for women, rather than an expectation for women to become and develop more like men (i.e., relying on prevailing strength and athleticism). As in, "what's with the pushups and deadweights??" :rolleyes: We are, after all, supposed to be training in [I]Wing Chun[/I]. ;)
  • Training that is physically consistent with the principles espoused (keenly related to the bullet above). This is in contrast to schools which “say” one thing, but demonstrate and demand something contradictory in practice.
  • A reasonably safe location (for the coming and going)
  • Mutual respect
  • Plenty of individualized help and 1:1 instruction from teacher, qualified seniors, or both
  • Teaching paced appropriately to my personal rate of development
  • The same things that are "turn ons" for individual males, may be the same for females

Some Turn Offs:

  • Lack of seriousness about the training in general
  • Taking the women's training (in particular) less seriously than the men's, or being treated "differently" on the basis of gender (as opposed to individual differences)
  • Unreasonable demands or expectations, especially as regards safety, risk of injuries, or overall well-being
  • Too much testosterone in any of its manifestations
  • Thoughtlessness, unkindness, and inconsideration
  • Emphasis on "fight club" mentality (in contrast to increasing "fighting capabilities")
  • Too much emphasis on training credentials or certificates, resume's, worshipful titles, etc. ... if someone is trying too hard to impress me or command my respect, chances are they won't
  • Expectations of hero worship or cult-like servility. Also unreasonable demands on students beyond actual training (e.g., in terms of time, money, services, etc.)
  • Lack of respect for life's demands and responsibilities outside of Wing chun
  • Excessive commercialism
  • Big egos, and Alphas that take themselves all seriously (I tend to either gag or laugh)
  • Holding back, disingenuous, or uneven teaching
  • The same types of things that turn off individual males, will turn off individual females

Some things that don’t really matter

  • The decor
  • Other than working with mature adults, age doesn’t matter (18 –108 … it all works for me)
  • Uniforms, belts, ranks
  • Tournament participation
  • Fighting history (this may actually play against a school on the ethics scorecard)
  • Size of school (unless it is too big)
  • Proportion of women to men

I’m sure there is more, but these are a few thoughts for starters.

As with most things, it boils down to a matter individual tastes, values and, as always, balance. Much less an issue of gender than it may seem, IMHO.


Thanks

Sure, and welcome.


Good Luck in your Kung Fu!

You too.

Regards,

  • kj
4

Hi Lindley

“I would like to hear from our Si-Moi’s and Si-Jays as to what attracts women to train in Wing Chun.”

I started learning wing chun because I wanted to learn how to fight and how to feel more comfortable when dealing with physical confrontations. The attraction was that I had been told that wing chun was developed by a woman to enable other women to defend themselves against a bigger, stronger opponent.

“Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?”

Not sure what you are asking here but my personal preference is for integrated male/female classes. However when other women have turned up we have had women-only sessions in addition to our normal class schedule.

“How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?”

I started at my school (and the one before that) as the only woman in the class so I can’t really say that it affects me one way or another.

“Please also list specifics in regard to turn ons and turn offs that keep you training or make you decide to leave.”

Nothing really to add to Wcis4me or kj statements, both very well put. :smiley:

Good luck with your training.

5

Hi KJ and other sisters…

IMHO, MEN WCK can be using hard muscles… look like robot… tiger or crane from Shao Lin… pokemon.. or anything one likes to fantasy.:smiley:

As for Woman’s WCK, I belive one needs to start with breathing and understand one’s body and its natural rythm. Bottom line, Woman’s body is more “figile” (not in a looking down sense, since Woman needs to carry baby and breast feed and take care of the kids… A very important mission).

For example, the chest structure for Woman should not be tigthen with elbow to center line which certainly will cause problem in the long run…

So, more then men, one needs to make the best use of “nature.”

For a start, IMHO, take a look at
http://www.breathing.com/articles/gay-hendricks.htm
http://www.breathing.com/tests.htm

And ask the question, is my SLT accord to nature in both breathing, spine movement… IF not let’s seach for a “nature way”. Today, we have lots of good research like above website to supply and support us on the path to return to nature.

Ancient myth of “doing this and somedays sometimes will turn one into…” should no longer taking for granted.
Some myth can damage body and cause health problems. We certainly wants all mom looks great and health.:smiley:

However, our ancestors, IMHO, I belive did a very good design in SLT which is very natural.

other opinion,

if you have high blood presure, DONT raise your hand above your eyes and pay attention or forcing concentration on you eye browse area… as some do in SLT. That cause problem.

If you have low blood pressure, Don’t sink your yee to the bottom of your feet as K1 point for long time. That cause problem.

Hendrik

6

It appears that WCis4me, hakka mui, and I are in general harmony on the subject. While individual preferences, goals, and interests will vary, perhaps we are at least a reasonably representative, albeit small sample set, especially regarding the importance and common themes of attitude and the seriousness of our work. [Greets, gals. :)]

I would add that it is also enjoyable working, sharing, and training with many of our Wing Chun brothers, who help us in so many intentional and unintentional ways, besides bringing balance to the work. Among them are a special few, like Hendrik as case in point, who especially hold our best interests sincerely to heart. Such good will is much appreciated.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
7

KJ wrote:

I would add that it is also enjoyable working, sharing, and training with many of our Wing Chun brothers, who help us in so many intentional and unintentional ways, besides bringing balance to the work.

I couldn’t agree more!
Vicky

8

Re: For Women Only

Originally posted by Lindley
[B]

“Does a separate class favor an integrated male/female class?”

We actually tried a seperate class for women at our school and no one really came to it. Although, we do usually end up partnering a new female student with a senior one for her first few classes if there is one available.

“How do you feel if you are the only female in the class? Or if you go in a school where no females are training? Does this affect you at all?”

When I started training, our school was very very small and I was usually the only girl there. I didn’t mind at all. There are still times when I am the only female in the room and am often leading class. It affects me in the sense that I am aware of it when I need to be…like when it makes others uncomfortable and I have to address it.

One of my favorite scenarios to present the men folk who have trouble working with women is as follows:

So it has been ingrained within “you” to “not hit a girl”… consider this: I am a small woman who has been trianing with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have “given” me position instead of making me “earn” it. I now have a complete false sense of security. Now when I see a guy coming at me that is “your” size, I think I can handle it but am wrong. When I end up a head line as “woman found in trunk” you can take partial responsibility for not be a proper partner.

Granted, this is just something to break the ice and try to get the big picture on the screen.

"Please also list specifics in regard to turn ons and turn offs that keep you training "

Much agree with KJ’s list so won’t be rudundant

“or make you decide to leave.”

—too much about politics and not enouch Wing Chun.

Thanks

Good Luck in your Kung Fu! [/B]

9

Re: Re: For Women Only

Hi dragon lady,

Originally posted by dragon lady
So it has been ingrained within “you” to “not hit a girl”… consider this: I am a small woman who has been trianing with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have “given” me position instead of making me “earn” it. I now have a complete false sense of security. Now when I see a guy coming at me that is “your” size, I think I can handle it but am wrong. When I end up a head line as “woman found in trunk” you can take partial responsibility for not be a proper partner.

Great ice breaker. You can bet I’m going to plagiarize the nuances of this one, LOL.

—too much about politics and not enouch Wing Chun.

Amen to that. :rolleyes:

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
10

Can guys come in now?

Please oh please? <wags tail impatiently>

11

Re: Can guys come in now?

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Please oh please? <wags tail impatiently>

You’ve obviously received some excellent obedience training, LOL.

Lindley is the one to consult with since he set the constraints of the thread. I think it’s apparent that I and the other ladies are pro co-ed.

Regards,

  • kj
12

beating the ladies

I would just like to say, I enjoy beating the ladies in my class. It’s quite an ego booster.

13

Re: Re: For Women Only

Originally posted by dragon lady
I am a small woman who has been trianing with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have “given” me position instead of making me “earn” it. I now have a complete false sense of security.

I would like some clarification on “not given me any real energies to deal with.” What in Dragon Lady’s mind constitutes “real energies?” Does this mean force? Because if so, she should be happy as brute strength isn’t part of WC training (chi sao at any rate). The lighter the touch the better!

Second, if the guys have “given… position” what did she do in response to teach them not to do that?

Finally, on the issue of security – I think more feedback from other women who train would be interesting, because I train with women and would like understand their expectations of their chi sao partners.

Do women who study WC want to be treated the same as male students, or do you want to train differently to meet more specific needs? I think this does need clarification and should be articulated in class so everyone is on the same page and no one is feeling (a) disrespected or (b) that s/he isn’t getting what s/he wants out of class.

14

The objective of this post is to get honest feedback from female practicioners. which is to serve as valuable information
for instructors reading this. Useless comments will be (and already have been) reported.

In regard to the question of what women expect during their training: Training, with Chi Sao in particular, should be “cooperative”. Male or female, when playing any exericse in class, should communicate what they want to train. If you are training “all out” against your Kung Fu brothers and
sisters at all times, then you are missing the essence of the training. You will not be “focused” and end up affecting your ego instead of developing yourself or your partner. Even in 'Free sparring" or playing free chi sao, your partner should be advised as to what your training goals are.

Kung Fu is intelligent. Use your mind.

15

Originally posted by dragon lady
So it has been ingrained within “you” to “not hit a girl”… consider this: I am a small woman who has been trianing with much larger men for quite some time. These men have not given me any real energies to deal with and have “given” me position instead of making me “earn” it. I now have a complete false sense of security. Now when I see a guy coming at me that is “your” size, I think I can handle it but am wrong. When I end up a head line as “woman found in trunk” you can take partial responsibility for not be a proper partner.

>I don’t think there can be a better analagy of why we want to be trained in a co-ed environment with the same degree of intensity.

Alpha Dog Wrote:

Can guys come in now?
Please oh please? <wags tail impatiently>

>LOL!

Do women who study WC want to be treated the same as male students, or do you want to train differently to meet more specific needs? I think this does need clarification and should be articulated in class so everyone is on the same page and no one is feeling (a) disrespected or (b) that s/he isn’t getting what s/he wants out of class.

>While I think it vary’s from woman to woman, judging by my sister’s who have posted here along with myself, it would appear that yes we do want to be treated the same. With that said it is also important to note that every person training in WC is on a different plain in at least one of the following areas, different skill level, fitness level, body structure, mindset. Knowing this, a good Sifu will train someone (either male or female or in alpha dogs case, canine ;)) somewhat differently, same skills…different approach. I expect to be trained with the same intensity and skill that is suitable for anyone at the same skill level, and thrown a few challenges by those who are senior to me regularily. This keeps me on my toes and helps my skill to increase.
As far as it being articulated in class, I think myself and my sisters would be pretty good with being clear if something wasn’t right for us…just as our brothers would. I dont think we need a special announcement made solely for us. I think it would have more of a segragating quality. It should just be accepted that no disrespect or undermining should occur in the kwoon with regards to ANYONE.

16

I am reading this and learning much. When I was getting started-
my elder wing chun kung fu sister Nancy Macdonald) was immensely helpful in teaching and showing me the simplest and most coordinated paths in every motion.

17

Originally posted by WCis4me
[B] I dont think we need a special announcement made solely for us. I think it would have more of a segragating quality. B]

I agree. Didn’t mean to suggest a “special announcement,” just words to the effect that all should train their partners without presumptions – be they gender-based or otherwise. I don’t believe in a “Wing Chun for Women” kinda class, nor do I believe that women who come to class expecting to only learn self-defence techniques should be encouraged to persist in that frame of mind.

18

I agree. Didn’t mean to suggest a “special announcement,” just words to the effect that all should train their partners without presumptions – be they gender-based or otherwise. I don’t believe in a “Wing Chun for Women” kinda class, nor do I believe that women who come to class expecting to only learn self-defence techniques should be encouraged to persist in that frame of mind.

Excellent points and well put.

19

On the point of “Women Only” classes, let us remember that Yip Man did have at least one! The women who have responded so far (and I extend my sincerest thanks) seemingly agree for equal training for all. However, we must (as I believe one response did) acknowledge, that there are women who may not feel as comfortable as being the only female or engaging in exercises with larger partners (or the high testosterone levels).

For example, there are quite a few women who do not go to the more famous gyms because they feel it is just a “pickup” joint. And there are some women who train diligently regardless of the stares. The Women’s Only class would probably serve a purpose for women who want to “ease” into the more diverse training arena. When we have had sparring classes, we believe in starting out pairing up people of similar size. Facing off in a non-controlled environment is a stage of adjustment in itself. There should be a process of gaining comfort before facing someone of another size.

Rumor has it in my school that at least one female student did not return because of being “talked to” by another student. I have since made it clear that all students should make me aware of any harassing students and that this will not be tolerated. Hence, my point is that like at the gym, harassment can exist. My point being that I was not aware of it before they quit.

Keep going. Maybe one of the instructors out there can relate what they observe about the training relationships amongst the sexes and how they motivate and retain interest in their female todai.

Good Luck with your kung fu!

20

This is a good thread, and it is really nice to see the interests and enthusiasm among women practitioners. In my opinion, it is too bad that there are not more women practitioners around, and I hope that there will be more as time goes by. Some of the best students I have come across are female practitioners, and they usually develop really good structures and foundations leading to a very solid, mature Wing Chun as they progress. Hopefully, this thread will help to encourage more female martial arts enthusiasts to explore the style.