I should add to this thread that CMC’s Eastern Lineage (mainly from Taiwan) is baishi based.
Secondly, I used to study in one of a school with this Eastern lineage (Taiwan-Singapore-Malaysia) and I have used CMC form to fix my knee which I damaged in Judo. If you fail to relax your hip and back leg, yes, you could misalgine your knee. But getting the correct knee position (avoiding tight rope standing) is one of the first thing I was taught in this school. I found CMC one of the easites one to properly align the knee due to its short stance. But if you get the knee wrong, i could certainly see that CMC will mess up your knee due to its extrem weight distribution rule of 99/1.
Strange though I have actually corrected a long held knee injury through 100% weight in one leg stances.
If the alingment it right then it only serves to strengthen the leg.
Very few on this net have been in an actual fight.
Even fewer on this net have been in an actual fight with a skilled opponent trying to rip their head off. Chen Man Jing was in several and all were well documented
Can this be said about his critic’s?
I have a friend who is a major Wu disciple and according to him an Older Wu family member who knew him said Chen Man Jing was a very good fighter when he was young. However, by the time he moved to the west, he had given up his fighting ways. Hence, he didn’t want to teach fighting anymore. I’m not sure I believe this, I believe he left the martial side in his system, students just have to pursue it like he did when he was young. Yang Chen Fu didn’t like to fight either when he taught Chen Man Jing.
But it’s only a second hand source. I tend to believe it though. In Taiwan, It’s known that he was defeated several times by some well-experienced boxers, but he improved greatly after every defeat, until it was very hard to beat him in a fair fight. Around this time few-dared attempt it, those who did lost convincingly. I think this would be the time frame Mr. Smith would have known him and wrote about him in his book. Later, he would give up the martial side saying “It was a contest best played by young tigers” or something to that effect.
Bottom line is… He had a huge impact on internal arts in two different corners of the world. Pretenders usually don’t achieve this; so I believe he was legit and I believe he was a great teacher. He’s been dead for how many years and we are still talking about him.
For the record, I don’t practice Chen Man Jing style
Doesn’t William Chen from New York teach the combat side since he learned it from Taiwan for many years? I heard however that his son mostly teaches there now and all the san shou fighters are trained in kickboxing not tai chi to fight.
Originally posted by Unmatchable Doesn’t William Chen from New York teach the combat side since he learned it from Taiwan for many years? I heard however that his son mostly teaches there now and all the san shou fighters are trained in kickboxing not tai chi to fight.
I have not heard this. I have mixed opinions about him and TT Lang.
Heh, heh. I have read a comment by Cheng Man Ching where he was asked if he thought Shaolin was a good martial art. He said that if he thought that to be the case he would be doing Shaolin instead of Tai Chi. When he let loose on Smith it was only a training situation, not a fight. I seriously doubt he used Shaolin or any other arts. Cheng was a Tai Chi man all the way and his Tai Chi was all he needed. For those wanting to read more about the effectiveness of Cheng’s Tai Chi (the art, not Cheng himself) I would recommend the book “Searching For The Way” (I think that’s the title) by Nigel Sutton. I know only very little Tai Chi (mainly a Hsing-I & Bagua guy) but I’ve had it demonstrated on me and was left with NO doubts that it can stand well on it’s own. T.
I know it sounds not too nice but if you want to see the legacy of Chengs martail ability I think you need to lok at the lineages that came down through his Taiwanese disciples and not that much of his American students. In this respect I do understand why some people have said here that Cheng didn’t seem to need to fight much he was older and therefore didn’t show it much. I can assure that his 12 main Taiwanese disciples did learn how to fight with Cheng. All of them probably had a different apititude and some excelled in certain areas more than others (some were known to be better than others), but I think , although I haven’t read it, that Nigel Suttons book could testify to this partially if not wholly about his Taiwanese disciples getting their fighting skills from him.
It’s true that Cheng’s fights were seen by quite a few people and some famous encoutners like the one with the famous White Crane Master who he trounced where no one could see what he did yet repelled him back hitting a wall and knocking him out, was one witnessed by critics from both sides and therefore totally verified.
I think Cheng whilst learning his fighting skills from Yang naturally elvolved to prove Taiji was an excellent martial art but it weas more than that and hence later in life decided to concetrate a particular generation, i.e. his USA years, more on health. Cheng never taught so much information which he had whilst in America, I mean he never taught yang family Spear to any one in America, and he mostly taught people his modified short form, I’m quite sure there are American swho never got his Yang family long form. Another fact is that the Bear Classic Qi-gong which he gave as a parting gift to his 12 Taiwanese disciples was something which I don’t think was openly taught to his American schools. Of course I’m not 100% sure about that one but I have it a source from a student of one of Chengs top Taiwanese disciple that that was the case.
Here’s a few lines from Nigel Suttons book “Applied Tai Chi Chuan”…
“Cheng Man Ching did not regard his form to be any simpler than the long form; indeed he made many changes of such a nature that they ensure the form should be regarded as a seperate style from that of the Yang Family” Page 16 Ch 2
The second reason reason given regarding why Cheng Man Ching shortened the forms? The first was to popularize Taijiquan for his own Nationalistic purposes regarding health. I always thought that Yang Cheng Fu had done this already!
“The second reason was his own laziness: He wanted to get through his daily practice as quickly as possible, but without reducing the efficiency of the exercise.” Page 15 Ch 2
I just posted the above in lieu of prior debate regarding Cheng and Yang style, which tends to back my thoughts on Yang vs Cheng.
Regarding Cheng and his relationship to Yang Cheng Fu?
“In the Far East, Cheng Style Taijiquan, as it is known, is seen as a completely seperate system than it’s parent Yang Style” Page 14 Chapter 2
“… Cheng, however, was by no means one of Master Yangs most famous disciples, and in mainland China today his name is virtually unknown. Those who do recall his name, remember him as the young man who was constantly challenging, and constantly being beaten by boxers of reknown.” Page 14 Ch 2
Anyway I thought these may be of interest to the general debate.
Well yes but then every person who takes on a form taught to them by and large is creating or personalising their own form you could argue! Within the Yang family the different generations of Yang members are remembered for their distinctive take on the family forms.
As to laziness bit I’m not sure if this is reliable, you’ll always get some saying it was laziness as to why he shortened things and others saying it was refinement/efficiency as to why he shortened stuff. Thing is he taught all his Taiwanese disciples the Yang family Long form untouched. He taught them what Yang Cheng-fu taught him.
It’s no surprise that he was only a name in Taiwan becuase that’s where his reputation spread, and thats where he spent a lot of his Taiji years, so that is correct. It’s hard to say what his reputation would of been like if he had paraded his skills around China as a whole, but I don’t think that was his mission in life. And the last bit about him being “constantly challenging, and constantly being beaten by boxers of reknown.” sounds about right from his early years under Yang’s tutelage, as I think Yang encouraged his pupils to challenges especially with members of different styles at times. Cheng was not the best fighter he was just up there with some of the greats, but by no means the best.
There is always someone who can beat someone else, surely this is the nature of peopole’s gong-fu evolving and developing?
As to laziness bit I’m not sure if this is reliable
He (Cheng) actually alluded to this himself and it is discussed within the book where Cheng admits he would rush through his forms because of a lack of patience and lazyness. Grist for the mill however.
at that period, dojo breaking and challenge match was not uncommon. So you couldn’t make name for yourself unless you won fights. Vidoe footage is just matter of technology. Would you say Miyamoto Musashi was not a good fighter because his fight was not recorded in video?
As of CMC being lazy, you really have to remember that he made name for himself not just as a taichichuan master but master of five excellence in other arts such as poetry, calligraphy, painting and most importantly medicine. Most people could master only one or not master even one. And he was quite decent at number of other chinese arts such as chinese chess to Chinese classics publishing number of commentary. Not something a lazy lad could achieve. Western equivelant is like being a ranked boxer, an authority in Greek classics, renowned artist of classical painting & sculpture who has held number of private exhibits, published poet and a the same time being a medical doctor. No wonder people were impressed by him.
In gong fu where someone’s skill could be easily demonstrated by challenge match, he clearly did excell at it. Not a small feat given that he was a small man even by chinese standard.
I believe that more realistic interpretation to his style of taichichuan is that he reorganised taichi training into specialised drill. So in the morning, he did staff to train fajing. And every 10-15 minutes he can find in his busy schedule, he trained his jing by doing his “short-yang” form or neigong. That is obviously different approach from traditional style where you train everything in the form.
Short form is excellent training tool if you want to focus on one aspect/principle of taichichuna. CMC is a style stripped down to bear minimum/essence so that you can specialsied in various aspet depending on your training focus. And I know there are few masters who simply repeat grasping sparrow’s tail for their exercise. (And I’m guessing that some Chen stylist just do silk realing) So it is not realy about what form or style you do but what you do with it that matter.
Is there any clips of tai chi being used in sparring (not push hands) or competition fighting without looking like kickboxing? What proof do we have of his fighting abilities besides Robert Smith who is known to exaggerate people’s abilities espoecially his teachers. And William Chen who studied under the man. Every martial art is filled with tales of unbeatable masters but only few have evidence to prove effectiveness.
Well how about his other Taiwan disciples and the those of the CMC opponents that he beat? I’ll try and find some other documentation from a friend of mine.