Remember the Tien Dei Yan?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
101

But others here on this forum find it as an all too transparent insult against lineages he has many times in the past went out of his way to attack.

I preface this by stating the obvious, viz. I’m not a likely choice for KFO’s “Polite Poster of the Year 2004” , or HFY108’s “Friendliest non-HFY Infidel 2004”.

Have you considered what impression your endless and boring attacks on Hendrik (who IMO took “endless and boring” to new levels himself) and Joy (who IMO is as good and polite a poster as any) say about you?

And by association your lineage (the posters on here belonging to which seem almost uniform in their opinions and targets)?

If you guys really are riding in the red cigarette boat through the polluted sea of Popular Wing Chun ™, and claim the moral high ground (excuse that mixed multimetaphor), when are you going to start practising what you preach?

What is it exactly that makes you better than the rest? Ch’an, tien Dai Yan and Sam Mo Kiu (sp)? 'Cause it sure ain’t obvious on this thread.

102

Anerlich always calls it as he sees it- and I have no problem with that.

103

G-fist,

For us, asking to Chi Sau is a challenge first and foremost. And… we consider Chi Sau a tool for fighting, not just training.

Anerlich,

Yep… I can definitely see how boring it truly is. But many many KF practitioner have issues with Hendik and his practices. Not just members of my lineage.

104

The politics behind all this need not be mentioned

You looked pretty silly jumping right in and mentioning it after saying that.

The heat Hendrik gets from some of the HFY people here are the reactions TO the actions he has done over the course of recent years and continues to do today.

Hendrik is HFY’s worst enemy? Jeez, I’m going to have to try harder … I though I was at least a contender … Victor, help me … :frowning:

Hopefully you can see I’m not serious - but jeez, you guys need to take yourselves and your position in the world a little less seriously. Maybe you could even have INDIVIDUAL opinions … maybe talk to Garrett and Benny about it. I know it’s a novel idea, but …

105

Originally posted by duende
[B]G-fist,

For us, asking to Chi Sau is a challenge first and foremost. And… we consider Chi Sau a tool for fighting, not just training.

Anerlich,

Yep… I can definitely see how boring it truly is. But many many KF practitioner have issues with Hendik and his practices. Not just members of my lineage. [/B]

I think that totally depends on the intent of how it was asked. Asking to learn from difference and asking to touch hands with someone are two distinct differences. Its all in perspective I suppose.

I see your point, and I have heard of people who have entered my sihings school and done the same. Its all a waste of time. Concentrate on yourself and let others train how they please.

106

Now me? Et tu Brute? Nope-<g>

No drama.

It is not worth it to respond to the latest round of personal HFY
verbal attacks. Serves no constructive
purpose to reply in kind..

They have so many facts wrong anyway. For the record-I most certainly did not send anyone to the local HFY school. Not my modus operandi anyway. Repeating a lie or lies (about sending people) do not make them true.

Besides, I read their book- and gave it away. End of my curiosity…
honest.

Scaramouche had the right idea- the gift of laughter.

Bye to this thread. Do we have the capacity of moving on?

107

Not for nothing, but…

Originally posted by Vajramusti
((Whatever- stereotyping gets you exactly nowhere))joy

And yet…

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hendrik seems to easily disturb duende, Chango, da moose, savi and the HFY crowd

Not me.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
((Some people have not agreed with him, some have teased him, but the HFY folks have been consistently infuriated with him. He has obviously touched a collective nerve there.))joy

Not me.
Not mine.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
The HFY folks have tried to make a jargonish mystery out of it

Not me.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
the HFY folks in their apparent insecurities take it to be so… primarily because of the HFY attempt to wrap themselves in several blamkets–Shaolin, Chan,

Not me.
And then not me again.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
With the obvous anti Hendrik bias among the HFY folks

Not me.

And this is only one thread.

For the record, I study HFY.

Thus, I must ask…

Are you perhaps guilty of stereotyping yourself and perhaps a good sized dose of your own advice would be in order, or am I somehow in all of these catagories as well? Seeing as how I have never been upset by Hendrick for anything, I have not “jargonized” anything, I have no insecurities in regards to my Kung Fu, I wrap myself in no blankets other than my own personal identity, and have never posted “anti-Hendrick bias,” it would SEEM that the first conclusion holds a great deal of merit.

And, as I always do, I ask that if I somehow fit those catagories, you could be so kind as to point out how. That way, I can try to understand how no one else has never seen such behavior from me.

Thanks in advance.

-Levi

108

Gangsterfist,

I agree chi sao should be a non-competitive drill.

However, there has been plenty of history where people have gone to a school, asked to chi sao with the instructor, the instructor gave them a respectful go, and then they run off and spread rumours that they “owned” the person concerned, beat him up, etc etc. Duende and Savi have unwittingly shown you how such situations can be twisted to suit the agenda of whoever is talking about them. There are no doubt two sides to THAT story.

I head a story about Emin Boztepe, asked for about the six millionth time if a visitor could chi sao with him. “What will that prove?” he reputedly said. “Let’s fight instead.”

A bit aggro perhaps, but I understand where he is coming from.

We’ve generally had a fairly uncompromising attitude to strangers coming in and asking to compare skills. We would not want them to go away with any doubt as to our abilities. The last guy who insisted on Chi Sao with my instructor received a non-damaging but powerful shot to the solar plexus that left him unable to continue (or stand for a little while). The last guy that came in got taken down and choked and armbarred several times by a student who had about a decade’s less experience than he. Chi Sao doesn’t include takedowns? It does where I come from. Don’t want that? stay away.

My only real problem in this area was a guy that come in for a private lesson with me and really wanted to fight. I was a bit worried - either of us could have got hurt, and either way I would have suffered. Fortunately, I was able to gas him out in a couple of minutes of sparring without either of us getting hurt or me breaking a sweat, and I ended up showing him some basic mitt work and suggested he do some cardio.

109

Taltos makes good points.

He is indeed a person of his own opinions, and goes out of his way (and perhaps far beyond the call of duty) to be reasonable and respectful.

A role model for his peers in the HFY organisation, and perhaps some of his seniors as well.

110

Well, I have successfully gone to other kwoons and chi sao’d other people in a non-competitive or aggressive way. I just tell them up front I would like to experience something different and would like a chance to work out with your students. I have never asked to chi sao a sifu or challenge what a sifu says. Its his class and he is the boss. Sometimes different sifus will welcome this, sometimes they will want me to pay for a class, but still welcome it, and sometimes they will decline. My sifu encourages it, but always tells me to be mindful of my manners. If chi sao is fighting to some people with grappling and take downs and such (which is more like fighting IMO) then I can choose not to participate and thank them for their time.

Its all about ego, and since when I go out to touch hands with other people I don’t have an ego, it usually works out fine. Once I got punched in the face by this big guy chi saoing. He bascially just charged right in at me before when even really started rolling. I admit I wasn’t ready for it, but I just told him I was done and walked off. There is no need to start fights from things like this.

I get the feeling that a lot of people on this forum would have a hard time doing things like this with out ego. Chi sao is not fighting, its a drill that build attributes. If you wish to punch people, grapple them, etc then why not just spar? or fight?

Again, this is my POV of wing chun training and different lineages will have different reasons.

In the world of wing chun there is a lot of unneeded policitics which can become ridiculous arguments. I can see where some sifu’s do not welcome outsiders, heck I have been a closed door student myself at one time. However, if anyone ever comes my way and wants to work out, and I actually have the time I have no problem with that. If you cop an attitude or spit out my lineage this then we are done right there.

111

“Touching hands” (or chi sao) can give you some idea of a person’s approach but it won’t – because it can’t – show fighting skill (the ability to apply WCK). It’s all “this is what I would do” kind of stuff. And being able to do it in “touching hands” is very, very, very different than being able to do it when someone is not playing “the game” but instead is doing everything to knock your head off. The former is theory, the latter is application. Lots of people have great theory, but we don’t see too much great application. You can’t judge by theory – lots of things sound great or look great in cooperative environments (chi sao, 1 step sparring, etc.).

112

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[Bbeing able to do it in “touching hands” is very, very, very different than being able to do it when someone is not playing “the game” but instead is doing everything to knock your head off[/B]

Amen to that.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve thought my Chi Sau/San Sau/Whatever was pristine, then had a friendly go with some brothers or sisters and discovered some rather large holes in my skill. Then I thought, “if a FRIENDLY and (as we were students in the same school) RELATIVELY SAFE exchange opened me up like this, what’s gonna happen when the chips are REALLY down?”

This usually results in my humbly returning to the proverbial drawing board.

-Levi

113

Originally posted by t_niehoff
You can’t judge by theory – lots of things sound great or look great in cooperative environments (chi sao, 1 step sparring, etc.).

I just met a Korean guy who did 18 years of Hapkido. His Hapkido and also his Thai boxing is very good. He said he can do knife defence very well using Hapkido techniques. But he said realistically he doubts if any of those things will work in real such as against Filipino knife fighters. So his next venture was to study the Filipino fighting arts. He said even though Thai boxing is very effective, still they don’t like it in Korea because it doesn’t look good.

Ray

114

Originally posted by YongChun
He said even though Thai boxing is very effective, still they don’t like it in Korea because it doesn’t look good.
To quote a wise man, “Wing Chun is not good looking, it is good using”. Besides, there are no points for artistic impression.

115

Originally posted by Matrix
To quote a wise man, “Wing Chun is not good looking, it is good using”. Besides, there are no points for artistic impression.

To me that’s good looking if someone is good using.

116

Originally posted by Matrix
To quote a wise man, “Wing Chun is not good looking, it is good using”. Besides, there are no points for artistic impression.

Bill,

“Wing Chun is not good looking”

I hate to tell ya this, “You’re wrong about Wing Chun”

Wing Chun is the kind MEN’d like to flaunt and take to dinner.
Well She always knows her place, “simple and direct”
She’s got style, She’s got grace, She’s a winner.

117

Originally posted by YongChun
To me that’s good looking if someone is good using.
Ray,
I agree with you on that, but it doesn’t look as “cool” as some of the more flashy things we see running around. Some people see beauty in efficiency, but others want to look at the flowers. To each his own.

118

Originally posted by Rhat
[B]I hate to tell ya this, “You’re wrong about Wing Chun”

Wing Chun is the kind MEN’d like to flaunt and take to dinner.
Well She always knows her place, “simple and direct”
She’s got style, She’s got grace, She’s a winner. [/B]
Hey Rhat, There’s a song in there somewhere. :wink:
I have no problem with being corrected. I would rather be improved by criticism than ruined by praise.

As for Wing Chun, I think we all see the beauty in it, but in general, to the untrained eye, we may appear more utilitarian than beautiful. If I had to chose, not they are necessarily mutually exclusive, I would rather be “good using” than “good looking”.

119

Reflect

Lying?
First of all, the fact that Chaudhuri Sifu blatantly denied any such event without offering the benefit of the doubt should tell you something.

When Gangsterfist informed everyone about one of my sihingdai having an unfavorable exchange with his sihing, I gave him the benefit of the doubt and apologized on behalf of my school.

Rather than being “polite” about it (as anerlich says he is), Joy in turn accuses Duende and me of lying. Anerlich supports this accusation and says I have some sort of agenda. I can tell you will all sincerity that I am not lying and I do not have any agenda bent on destroying other lineages.

The fact is a student of Joy’s has come to my school more than once. He claimed to be a student of Joy’s which really raised a red flag in my head. Regardless I remained hospitable to him. He actually did not Chi Sau with me as Duende stated. He and I had an exchange of Paak Sau/Taan Sau against punches. He was not cooperative nor did he return the hospitality. It came to a point to when I decided it wasn’t worth my time and shut him down. I asked him if there was anything else I could help him with, then he left the school. I went back to helping my sihingdai train. That is the short version of it.

My Simo has told me that he has come around our school on several previous occasions with no real interest in finding out about what we offer. Rather, it seems that he comes around to waste our time and test his skill against us.

If you are unaware of these events Joy, then it would be most courteous of you to offer the benefit of the doubt rather than accuse me of lying. It did happen, and he stated that he did train under you. Perhaps diplomacy is not for you?

Individuality?
Secondly, for those that think the HFY members on this forum are some type of choir with no diversity in thought and opinion who only “parrot” what GM Gee and Master Meng teach us, you should rethink this. Levi speaks his own mind and has proven it in this thread. Chango speaks his mind and even uses this forum strictly for entertainment purposes. Da Moose definitely speaks his own mind very eloquently. Duende is certainly different in what he chooses to discuss.

These are just a couple of the members who have demonstrated their own character in their own way. I use this forum as a means to maintain a level of diplomacy (as demonstrated with Gangsterfist as of recent, and Ernie as in previous months) when it comes to HFY issues, and at times I will get aggressive when I don’t think diplomacy is warranted. Yet I still I speak my own mind.

Just because the HFY forum members appears to maintain a consistency in understanding of the HFY system (for what we have individually learned so far), and that we know who the antagonists are who are bent on derailing the HFY family and the VTM in public and private, is simply one example of unity. In any case, we all (as in everyone) speak from our own experiences and perspectives.

My perspective
Lastly, there are characters out there who, at nearly every opportunity, try and persuade people that HFY is a bunch of BS – and usually do it in an uncivilized and veiled manner. A fact is, that we (HFY) have members out there who are focused on defending that which we hold dear and believe in. They have decided to engage with these particular characters. I don’t know about you, but I am proud to have people protecting my family against naysayers.

And it is a fact that there are some HFY members who use this forum strictly for their own personal reasons, but you can’t tell me that the majority of this forum is not here for personal enertainment and social interactions. Not every HFY practitioner is a representative of the HFY lineage. “Guilty by Association” is an unfair treatment.

In the public eye, HFY is very young in comparison to other arts. I strongly believe these characters who are intent on attacking this lineage either put up or shut up. These type of people [I believe] are NOT interested in the survival of the Wing Chun world, but are more interested in their own ego.

120

First of all, the fact that Chaudhuri Sifu blatantly denied any such event without offering the benefit of the doubt should tell you something.

Ummmm … that you take yourself way too seriously and you need to grow a thicker skin?

Your implication that he orchestrated it doesn’t exactly show a lot of benefit of the doubt either. Perhaps you share the lack of diplomatic talent of which you go on to accuse Joy?

I can tell you will all sincerity that I am not lying and I do not have any agenda bent on destroying other lineages.

Well, Ok, but that and 20c will get me a ride on a bus. Dubya and the Prime Minister here, John Howard, say stuff like that too, especially as elections in both countries draw near. Both you and they come on as if you all expect to be treated as saints, giants of the intellect (OK, except Bush), illuminated beings or something equally overblown.

I’ll keep my critical facilities in place, thank you.

Show us, don’t tell us.

Anerlich supports this accusation

I never said you lied. I’ve got no reason to assume you lied, but none to assume you’re telling the truth either. It sounds to me like an uinconclusive incident that got blown out of all proportion with the help of some rampant paranoia.

The balance of probabilities and my impression of Joy formed over many years make it difficult for me to believe your accusation without proof. I have “reasonable doubt”, the benefit of which you toot your own horn about giving people like Gangsterfist.

Perhaps diplomacy is not for you?

And perhaps not for you either?

IMO diplomacy is way overrated. This an internet forum, not the UN.

Chango speaks his mind and even uses this forum strictly for entertainment purposes.

And, my, it is entertaining watching the antics of many, Chango included on occasion.

Secondly, for those that think the HFY members on this forum are some type of choir with no diversity in thought and opinion who only “parrot” what GM Gee and Master Meng teach us, you should rethink this.

I have. I’ve formed conclusions based on past and current posting and behaviour, so have (and will!) others.

The regular quoting of lengthy tracts from MKF and posts from HFY108 instead of explanations in your own words don’t exactly strengthen your argument or highlight your claims of ability for individual, critical thinking.

These type of people [I believe] are NOT interested in the survival of the Wing Chun world

The WC world is doing just fine. Those who have incurable expansionist tendencies, paranoia, or care that they don’t have a high enough profile or aren’t famous or rich enough might feel under threat, but WC’s still one of the highest populated TCMA’s out there.

Stop being so friggin’ SERIOUS about it all. It ain’t that big a deal. Your attitude almost demands ridicule sometimes.