Remember the Tien Dei Yan?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
81

Duende sez:
Once again… lots of words, no substance.
…
That’s where your problem lies, and that’s where you continually dig yourself in deeper and deeper. Maybe it’s time for you to stop laughing.

Hendrik seems to easily disturb duende, Chango, da moose, savi
and the HFY crowd! Their problem. I dont think that he takes pride in that. His own center is seemingly not easily disturbed.
I am not part of his social circles. But I have met him, talked with him, and seen some of his collection of TCMA info.- his smiles and laughter are pretty spontaneous. he is not on drugs or pornography. He is a fairly clean living vegetarian. He has not singled out duende or Chango or da moose or savi or rolling hand for personal attacks. He has fairly consistently critiqued their views on shaolin, Chan and some aspects of their CMA claims.

I have not always agreed with him and I am not in Cho family wc.
But his Cho form is clearly a form of wing chun. He recognizes that some of the Cho people have added other things in the migration to SE Asia.

Despite being goaded, he has been quite generous with information and analyses of his posts are read carefully- the songs ignored and his English skills overlooked. He “owes” his critics much much less IMO. He has repeatedly pointed out that anyone can put him on their ignore list. His “dialectical” style except for some of the English is in many ways classic sutra dialectics-where there is a thread though it is not always self evident.

He does not reject “evolution” in the martial arts and filling in gaps in individual training- his argument has been for continuity and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But he is a critic of cookbook Chan and pseudoscience.

While he is not engaged in competitive matches these days because of his ethics- he has had considerable contact experience…
not just book learning.
Ar certain points after bantering a bit he has…

1.he has outlined different perspectives on Tin Yan Dei

  1. pointed to the importance of body unity (no broken arrows) in CMA. The analogy of the two headed snake.

  2. he has articulated a fascinating thesis re a possible fujian white crane and emei snake connection in the roots of wing chun. Most CMAs in search of historical prestige mechanically claim shaolin.
    Easy to do.

  3. pointed to the different body chemistry of wc compared to hung gar and some other southern systems.

  4. pointed to the historic ethics connection in Buddhist approaches to martial arts.

  5. pointed out that unlike many martial arts, wing chun is not about technique.

And some other things as well. Hendrik- without bragging is multilingual..Cantonese, Mandarin, Fukien dialects, bhasa etc.
He is very well read in Chinese history, buddhism, literature.
Then he makes his living as an enterpreneur in high tech and
has one foot in aspects of the sciences.

Popularity was not his goal. Dialectics without personal attacks
was more of what he was about. Without the goading- there could have been some more info. But he still has contributed quite a bit to the forum.

he is quite active- hyperactive… hopefully that will bring him back again in the future.

What’s the point of sniping at him now?

82

I thought Rat’s only ate cheese and ran from sinking ships :slight_smile:

83

Originally posted by Vajramusti
[B]I have not always agreed with him and I am not in Cho family wc.
But his Cho form is clearly a form of wing chun. He recognizes that some of the Cho people have added other things in the migration to SE Asia.

Despite being goaded, he has been quite generous with information and analyses of his posts are read carefully- the songs ignored and his English skills overlooked. He “owes” his critics much much less IMO. [/B]
Joy,
From where I sit, I can only agree with your observations. I have learned that there is some bad blood out there. Too bad, nothing is gained from it. To quote Neitzsche " To the mean, all becomes mean".

Thanks,

84

Originally posted by PaulH
[B]Well, Hendrik! If I write an epitaph about you and your numerous and often long-winded posts on this forum, I think I would settle for this: “I had a lover’s quarrel with the world.” - Robert Frost

This is ever the most fundamental thing about you, my whimsical and poetic friend! The forum will not be the same without you… Anyway, enough said, now is a good time to fly and find your new horizon. Just do it and thanks for the memories! =) [/B]

Brother PauH,

Today, notice when someone says what he means, and when he doesn’t.

Wing Chun times alone can help you know–“While Yim Wing-Chun stood there “Wing Chun Kuen” she saw more than she can tell and she understood more than she saw.” On the other hand, Hendrik said more than what he understood. Where there are questions, there are no answers.

85

Joy wrote:

". . . he has outlined different perspectives on Tin Yan Dei . . . . "

I think this is an important point: the same term can have different meanings to different persons or groups. And sometimes, an “idea” or “concept” one group expresses with a certain term a different group expresses with some other term (you can express the same idea in different ways). No one “owns” these things nor should they assume their take on them is definative. in the end what matters is does your interpretation help you and can someone else’s interpretation help you (sometimes a different perspective provides clarity).

86

Rhat,

Go reading “The smiling Proud Wanderer” of Lin Yong. When you are good, there are only questions and no answers. =)

87

Originally posted by Matrix
There is no “Bill the man”, only “Rice-A-Roni”. I am merely a Fig Newton of your imagination.

Think of your imagination not as a means to an end–merely a way to get somewhere else–but a reality with its own life and identity. As the Taoist saying,“The Way (journey) is the reward.” No need to run…just be real.

88

Originally posted by PaulH
[B]Rhat,

Go reading “The smiling Proud Wanderer” of Lin Yong. When you are good, there are only questions and no answers. =) [/B]

Brother PaulH,

Go reading “No where to run, just be there and be youself” of Zatoichi. When you are for real, you don’t run away. :stuck_out_tongue: :wink:

89

Rhat,

If you stop and examine things carefully, you will note that where there are questions, you have a penchance to answer them so readily! =)

90

The end may justify the means, as long as there is also a way to justify the end.

91

More of the same from Joy…

That’s great that you want to stick up for your pal, but the truth of the matter is that many many members of this forum have noticed Hendik’s inablility to offer any credible support for his derogatory statements.

  1. He said Tin Dei Yan is a “wrong turn” without giving any support to his argument or illustrating his own knowledge of the subject. Maybe you find his musing on the utmost basic understanding of the terms of Tin Yan Dei as deep. But others here on this forum find it as an all too transparent insult against lineages he has many times in the past went out of his way to attack.

  2. Body unity??? That’s WC 101 where I come from. Broken Arrow??? That’s just his metaphor for stances that don’t equal that of his own system. Once again… another attack.

  3. Thesis??? Still waiting on this one! You must consider someone going out of there way to make empty statements to dis-credit concepts he doesn’t understand as a thesis. Gosh, remind me to take your coarse if I ever want an easy “A”.

  4. You needed this pointed out??

  5. Yeah… said it went against Chan to fight. Remember that one??? But then he retracted when he was reminded about a little known temple that went by the name of Shaolin. He also outright said that the abbot of Shaolin didn’t know what he was talking about, and that he knew more about Chan then him.

  6. Wrong. Uses his understanding of techniques as the foundation for all his attacks and arguments. Supports them with pictures of techniques and so on…

FWIW… we’ve all tried to kindly discuss these issues with him time and time again with no success. But one learns really quick that there’s no discussing anything with him. He’s just good at making insults and evading answers.

92

Originally posted by PaulH
[B]Rhat,

If you stop and examine things carefully, you will note that where there are questions, you have penchance to answer them so readily! =) [/B]

Always the same, and most of them long-winded “HOLLOW” posts. IMO, Pikachu can’t dance! We don’t have to worry about the truths that come to us with dazzle, because we’ll get those with little effort. But let’s show some active interest in those unadorned truths that take effort to achieve.

93

Despite being goaded, he has been quite generous with information and analyses of his posts are read carefully- the songs ignored and his English skills overlooked. – Joy
all you have left is the hahahahahaha :smiley:
originally posted by Terence
No one “owns” these things nor should they assume their take on them is definative.
Reading his post it does appear that hendrik tries to define Shaolin not just provide his perspective on the subject.
After all…It is “The San Francisco treat”.
Bill, don’t believe the hype.

94

Originally posted by Matrix
The end may justify the means, as long as there is also a way to justify the end.

Bill the man talks…

“a way to justify the end”

Try this…get in the habit of allowing a piece of news about suffering to trigger a moment of reflection for those involved. At least this is something we can do rather than just feeling powerless.

Zatoichi rocks…

The stone is a natural object–made without motive. Is that a story of Chan or Koan?

Someone runs away…

We need to see what’s taking place within our heart, our mind, our WCK. But Chan is about not getting caught by this hahahaha…

95

((Final comments on duende’s post and Canglong"s, since I am mentioned by name. Wont you guys be really happier with your own cheering squad on the HFY list? Seiously. Negative posts here really dont do much public relations for you .I just ignore the anonymous troll rhat -the boring repetitious reincarnated rolling hand. I dont even know or care -what he says.))Joy

My (Joy’s) comments in brackets…

More of the same from Joy…

((Whatever- stereotyping gets you exactly nowhere))joy

That’s great that you want to stick up for your pal,

((Actually he is no more nor less a pal than many on this list.
Until and unless indicated/warranted otherwise- I try to keep varying degrees of fraternal relationships with lots of people. And someone doesnt have to be a pal for my saying something positive about their post(s). And someone doesnt have to be an enemy for me to disagree with them )))joy

but the truth of the matter is that many many members of this forum have noticed Hendik’s inablility to offer any credible support for his derogatory statements.

((Some people have not agreed with him, some have teased him,
but the HFY folks have been consistently infuriated with him. He has obviously touched a collective nerve there. “Credible” is in the eye of the beholder- ))joy

  1. He said Tin Dei Yan is a “wrong turn” without giving any support to his argument or illustrating his own knowledge of the subject.

(( Not really- he specified different perspectives and the resultant differences in meanings of Tin Dei Ya and showed how dogmatically approaching the term as a mantra does not lead to much discourse. Most WC folks dont use the term. The HFY folks have tried to make a jargonish mystery out of it))

Maybe you find his musing on the utmost basic understanding of the terms of Tin Yan Dei as deep.

(( He is fairly clear and self consistent on this particular issue.
As some Old Worlders do— he uses a lot more metaphors and analogies than most westerners and he is different stylistically.
Just a fact. There are diversities in communication patterns. he can be long winded sometimes- then suddenly very precise. He has not launched a personal attack on anyone. ))

But others here on this forum find it as an all too transparent insult against lineages he has many times in the past went out of his way to attack.

(( Lineages… ? Not really- though the HFY folks in their apparent insecurities take it to be so… primarily because of the HFY attempt to wrap themselves in several blamkets–Shaolin, Chan,
Scientism. He is a serious Chan Buddhist and has mentioned who his Chan teacher is in addition to his martial arts teachers.
So name dropping “Chan” doesnt go very far with him))

  1. Body unity??? That’s WC 101 where I come from.

((101 are gatekeeping courses-generally in good institutions only about 10% get As- others have dimmer understanding of the subject))

Broken Arrow??? That’s just his metaphor for stances that don’t equal that of his own system.

((Not really- he has given lots of examples including the so called internal styles-tai chi included))

Once again… another attack.

((If every opinion of his is an attack on HFY…where there is smoke…??)))

  1. Thesis??? Still waiting on this one! You must consider someone going out of there way to make empty statements to dis-credit concepts he doesn’t understand as a thesis. Gosh, remind me to take your coarse if I ever want an easy “A”.

(((the difference between “coarse” and “course” is cleared up in English 101. Sorry you wont meet the pre-requisites. Sorry no easy As. Some theses require a lot of language polishing- his does. This is only a forum with a lot of nonsense. Cant take it always seriously))

  1. Yeah… said it went against Chan to fight.

((The doctrine -yes. On initiating violence. Read the sutras.
Specially on the meaning of the self in self defense))

Remember that one??? But then he retracted when he was reminded about a little known temple that went by the name of Shaolin. He also outright said that the abbot of Shaolin didn’t know what he was talking about, and that he knew more about Chan then him.

((The politics of Shaolin is a long and complicated subject- varying with dynasties- and with broken lineages under Mao. I also recall the current enigmatic abbot being skeptical about exclusive identification of a singular southern Shaolim temple.))

  1. Wrong. Uses his understanding of techniques as the foundation for all his attacks and arguments. Supports them with pictures of techniques and so on…

((Not so. Reading selectively and quoting out of context can butcher any position. Pictures can be interpreted differently.
With the obvous anti Hendrik bias among the HFY folks- no one can reasonably expect them to be convinced of much outside of their catechism))

Rhat
09-13-2004 06:51 AM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

((Bye bye rhat))

canglong
Immortal Methods

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: the Temple
Posts: 619

quote:

Despite being goaded, he has been quite generous with information and analyses of his posts are read carefully- the songs ignored and his English skills overlooked. – Joy

all you have left is the hahahahahaha
quote:

((laughter can be healthy-lighten up!!
Rafael Sabatini was a great writer of swasbuckling stories about warriors, swordsmen and romance including- Captain Blood, Sea Hawk…(with Errol Flynn in the movie versions) and Scaramouche.
The first line in the latter novel became his epitaph and worthy of note.
“He was born with the gift of laughter, and a sense that the world was mad”. So hahaha indeed.)))joy

96

Originally posted by Vajramusti

((Bye bye rhat))
joy

Joy,

“Bye bye”

Do as you please!

But wait…I don’t even know you:confused:

97

More of the same from Joy…
((Whatever- stereotyping gets you exactly nowhere))joy

Not a stereo type at all… your bias has long been blatantly clear for quite some time now. Now you have issues with a third party Rhat, just because he has the insight to see Hendik for who he is.

BTW… How’s that student of yours that dropped by our Chandler school recently?? I heard he complained that we did Chi Sau too fast and didn’t like being put in the corner. Good thing you taught him the rules. HA!

That’s great that you want to stick up for your pal,
((Actually he is no more nor less a pal than many on this list.
Until and unless indicated/warranted otherwise- I try to keep varying degrees of fraternal relationships with lots of people. And someone doesnt have to be a pal for my saying something positive about their post(s). And someone doesnt have to be an enemy for me to disagree with them )))joy

God… I sincerely hope you enjoyed writing all that. Go on… pat yourself on the back one more time!

but the truth of the matter is that many many members of this forum have noticed Hendik’s inablility to offer any credible support for his derogatory statements.
((Some people have not agreed with him, some have teased him,
but the HFY folks have been consistently infuriated with him. He has obviously touched a collective nerve there. “Credible” is in the eye of the beholder- ))joy

Constantly infuriated??? Not quite… but he can be more boring than you, even when your in Joy the cheerleader mode.

  1. He said Tin Dei Yan is a “wrong turn” without giving any support to his argument or illustrating his own knowledge of the subject.
    (( Not really- he specified different perspectives and the resultant differences in meanings of Tin Dei Ya and showed how dogmatically approaching the term as a mantra does not lead to much discourse. Most WC folks dont use the term. The HFY folks have tried to make a jargonish mystery out of it))

Not really??? No Really Joy! He did say it, and he meant it. Specifically in it’s usage against grappling. And despite all the “perspectives” you seem to have found, he failed to offer any knowledge of Tin Yan Dei that had anything to do with his accusations. Namely how it does not work against grappling.

Maybe you find his musing on the utmost basic understanding of the terms of Tin Yan Dei as deep.
(( He is fairly clear and self consistent on this particular issue.
As some Old Worlders do— he uses a lot more metaphors and analogies than most westerners and he is different stylistically.
Just a fact. There are diversities in communication patterns. he can be long winded sometimes- then suddenly very precise. He has not launched a personal attack on anyone. ))

Pikachu is not old world. You romanticise too much. I mean really too much. He has launched many a personal attacks… whole threads of them to be sure.

But others here on this forum find it as an all too transparent insult against lineages he has many times in the past went out of his way to attack.
(( Lineages… ? Not really- though the HFY folks in their apparent insecurities take it to be so… primarily because of the HFY attempt to wrap themselves in several blamkets–Shaolin, Chan,
Scientism. He is a serious Chan Buddhist and has mentioned who his Chan teacher is in addition to his martial arts teachers.
So name dropping “Chan” doesnt go very far with him))Joy

Chan isn’t candy for kids to fight over Joy… He’s basically throwing a little fit because he wants all Chan concepts to be initiated by, dictated by, and authorized by him alone. PERIOD. There’s no dicussion whatsoever.

  1. Body unity??? That’s WC 101 where I come from.
    ((101 are gatekeeping courses-generally in good institutions only about 10% get As- others have dimmer understanding of the subject))

Okay, then I guess your idea of body unity is flying elbows along side facial exageration of pain for dramatic effect.

Broken Arrow??? That’s just his metaphor for stances that don’t equal that of his own system.
((Not really- he has given lots of examples including the so called internal styles-tai chi included))

Yeah, so now he’s a Tai Chi expert too.

  1. Wrong. Uses his understanding of techniques as the foundation for all his attacks and arguments. Supports them with pictures of techniques and so on…
    ((Not so. Reading selectively and quoting out of context can butcher any position. Pictures can be interpreted differently.
    With the obvous anti Hendrik bias among the HFY folks- no one can reasonably expect them to be convinced of much outside of their catechism))

Let me make this clearer for you…

WRONG. USES HIS UNDERSTANDING OF TECHNIQUES AS THE FOUNDATION FOR ALL HIS ATTACKS AND ARGUMENTS. SUPPORTS THEM WITH PICTURES OF TECHNIQUES AND SO ON…

Is it clearer now?? Do you want to do your little half-time skit now???

98

Vajramusti

Originally posted by Vajramusti
but the HFY folks have been consistently infuriated with him. He has obviously touched a collective nerve there.
You need to change your soap cuz DHAAAMMM. A collective nerve? Infuriated? No… Amused? A bit more accurate. I personally enjoy watching him trip over his words post after post after post after post; saying one thing first, and then contradicting himself 5 posts later… over and over and over and over and over again. It can get entertaining at times. It must be his kung fu style to loop and loop and loop and loop just like he leaves and comes back and leaves and comes back. Seems like someone doesn’t know himself but thinks he does, and the continuity behind all that is his intended focus on an anti-HFY campaign.

You just ride in his rickshaw so, keep talking from the sidelines.

The politics behind all this need not be mentioned regarding Hendrik’s affiliates who have antagonized the HFY and VTM, or his self-propagandizing of anti-HFY Formula this, and HIS-Story that, and accusatory blasphemies which for at least the past three years have directly targeted the HFY family. The heat Hendrik gets from some of the HFY people here are the reactions TO the actions he has done over the course of recent years and continues to do today. You turn a blind eye to those who share your attachments, and as fluently as you can, make us out to be the bad guys.

If you actually did some research about HFY and actually tried it out or tested your kung fu against HFYWCK, your posts about us might actually mean something. But unfortunately, the best you can do is send your students to our school (which you know is just a 5 - 10 minute drive from Tempe) and have them lie about their martial experience while trying to get information about us and ‘test’ the hands of one of our instructors. If you’re going to do that, at least make sure that next time they are of some degree of higher skill and we will do this is in a formal manner.

My regards…

99

Duende says:

BTW… How’s that student of yours that dropped by our Chandler school recently?? I heard he complained that we did Chi Sau too fast and didn’t like being put in the corner. Good thing you taught him the rules. HA!

Here is a perfect example of not understanding where someone is coming from. How I was taught to chi sao sounds soundly different than you chi sao. Chi sao is not a competition and its not fighting. Movements should be controlled. The idea is to stick to your opponet not resist them, force them, fight them. That is fighting. Chi sao is a drill that build attributes, like sensitivity. From the sounds of it you chi sao differently, and have your reasons for it. In a fight situation if someone is using an excessive amount of force, and agressively come at you, more than likely your opponet will not try to stick to you. Instead of blasting out every other lineage but your own, perhaps try to understand where they are coming from. When I attented GM Ho Kam Mings seminar there were some questions projected to him about how other lineages do stuff. His answer was, they have their reasons for doing so, our reasons may differ.

It was simply put, and not bashing anyone else. Other lineages train a certain way because thats how they train. They must have their reasons for doing so.

I read a book on YKS wing chun a few months ago and it was different. In the book it explained the reasons why and I got the basic concept of why they do it that way. I do not say its worse or better, I just acknowledge the differences.

100

Re: Vajramusti

Originally posted by Savi
[B]You need to change your soap cuz DHAAAMMM. A collective nerve? Infuriated? No… Amused? A bit more accurate. I personally enjoy watching him trip over his words post after post after post after post; saying one thing first, and then contradicting himself 5 posts later… over and over and over and over and over again. It can get entertaining at times. It must be his kung fu style to loop and loop and loop and loop just like he leaves and comes back and leaves and comes back. Seems like someone doesn’t know himself but thinks he does, and the continuity behind all that is his intended focus on an anti-HFY campaign.

You just ride in his rickshaw so, keep talking from the sidelines.

The politics behind all this need not be mentioned regarding Hendrik’s affiliates who have antagonized the HFY and VTM, or his self-propagandizing of anti-HFY Formula this, and HIS-Story that, and accusatory blasphemies which for at least the past three years have directly targeted the HFY family. The heat Hendrik gets from some of the HFY people here are the reactions TO the actions he has done over the course of recent years and continues to do today. You turn a blind eye to those who share your attachments, and as fluently as you can, make us out to be the bad guys.

If you actually did some research about HFY and actually tried it out or tested your kung fu against HFYWCK, your posts about us might actually mean something. But unfortunately, the best you can do is send your students to our school (which you know is just a 5 - 10 minute drive from Tempe) and have them lie about their martial experience while trying to get information about us and ‘test’ the hands of one of our instructors. If you’re going to do that, at least make sure that next time they are of some degree of higher skill and we will do this is in a formal manner.

My regards… [/B]

Why do you care? How does it really effect you? Lets stop the trash talking all together. Amused or not, you HFY people like to argue. Lets stop before this turns into another 3 years of pointless flame wars on an internet message board. I mean you all realize this is an internet message board right? I show my friends this message board who don’t even do martial arts and they get a kick out of it.