“Ultimately I thnk this Red5angel guy is just concerned about the way his art is being turned into garbage by people who dont care, and odnt understand what it is all real about.
WAIT A MINUTE!! I AM RED5ANGEL!!!”
Those are your words. I have not been replying a lot to your posts because I hate everything that is political or can turn into it.Like all these style vs style threads everywhere most of your threads only tells us about how your Sifu (or sigung?) is better than everybody else in the world and how your lineage is the only one with real Wing Chun!..Many of your older brothers have told you in a polite way to “let go a little” and consider the fact that tact and politness is part of the martial arts as much as the technical parts.You never listen! You have your own views on everything and brush every comments away even if these comments are from people practicing Wing Chun for a very long time.
I tended to be very forgiving and somehow friendly with someone who loves Wing Chun like you do but,I wonder,are you bringing good to Wing Chun as you like to make us believe?..You seem to be instilling more trouble than good and you are not helping your Sifu at all believe me!..Is your “exitement” about Wing Chun more on the delirium side?..
I believe whatever the theorical knowledge someone might possess,the only real knowledge is into what he can do with his hands.So,what do you really know so you can say everybody else is doing crap?..
I can tell you something!..If I was you Sifu,you would have to shut up or leave and that’s it!..
You seem to be instilling more trouble than good and you are not helping your Sifu at all believe me!
Good point, perhaps Red, you could discuss the technical aspects and we could come to REALISE whats good for us if we understand it to make sence.. Kinda like when you were young and your mother would force you to eat your vegatables… you didnt want to do it! But when you grow up and realise, hey theres some goodness here that i have realied on my own…through my OWN understand of the reasons behind it. Not becasue you’re told: “This is good so DO IT!!!”
Besides the point that all this sifu worship is wearing tirelessly thin, you should be trying to exchange info in a friendly manner…trying to unite WC rather than segregate it (as you seem intent on doing)
You can have you views without saying it. Heck, i think if you NEVER mentioned your stance on good or bad WC again…people would still understand your point of view!
I can tell you something!..If I was you Sifu,you would have to shut up or leave and that’s it!..
Agreed…(if i were qualified to be a sifu of course! :P)
Old Jong, I understand where you are coming from. Here is my point of view:
First of all, I have never had a problem making freinds, and I can guarentee that if we were to meet face to face you would find me easy to talk to and discuss with, even if we differ on opinions. I am a nice guy, in general, but am not interested in being nice, just to keep the peace, at the cost of loosing something dear to me. In this case wing chun. In a perfect world all this wingchun out there would be cool, and fun and good, but it is not. If that breaks some peoples hearts to hear it, or outrages them, or inflames them or disappoints them that is fine but I do not play in those reindeer games.
Tell me this Old Jong, if someone asked you in earnest what you thought of thier wingchun, would you tell them the truth? It seems like some people are interested in only keeping the peace. The its all good, everything is ok, and it all works for someone attitude is a weak way to look at the martial arts. Samurai who often disagreed ended up trying to kill each other. I am not suggesting we kill each other, but that I will stand by my beliefs.
Many of my post are taken out of context by most here who are more interested in humor then in wingchun. I am often accused of kissing azz, particularly Carl Dechiaras, meanwhile the same people who do the accusing are blowing sunshine up each others butts about how its all ok.
I am not particularly concerned with people who dismiss what I am saying or cant look past percieved hype or advertisements to understand my point. If I say most wingchun sucks, I will be honest with you, I may not mean you in particular but chances are it may be true anyway. Sucks to hear it but that is how it sometimes is.
I am my own man, and do not speak for Carl or Ken Chung, I speak for myself, my attitude is my own. If I make a mistake I am more then willing to admit it and apologize. I have never made claims to be the best, just that I feel I am studying the best. I myself have a long way to go in my study but atleast I am making the effort to find it. Those who want to settle for what is convenient (Read most people) so be it, but I am not interested in that. I am interested in the search for good wingchun. In the old days many of the great masters, and wel known or notorious MA people were often said to have done much travelling and searching for the best, notmaking excuses about the cost of travel, the fact they had no time, or too many other hobbies. Hobbyist are fine by me but dont be a hobby instructor either if you have taken it up as a Hobby, because you most likely wont have it and will not have got it.
Now saying this I realize that it is not always the fault of the student, or even, at times the instructor, for passing down watered down, wing chun wannabe skills. It is often do to misguidance, and misleading on the part of those who came before.
Sorry to disappoint you Old jong, you seem like a nice guy, but it is really no concern of mine if I disappoint on this forum or not. I have recieved plenty of positive responses from people willing to discuss with me in seriousness where I am coming from etc.. feel free to pm or email me to talk if you wish to clarify my points of view, without distraction and such.
S. Teebas - “Good point, perhaps Red, you could discuss the technical aspects and we could come to REALISE whats good for us if we understand it to make sence..”
If you look at my last several post then you wil see that they are of a technical nature. It is often turned into something else by someone else, not myself. Some of them actually spur on some good conversation…
“Old Jong, I understand where you are coming from.”
…Frankly,I don’t think so!..
" If I say most wingchun sucks, I will be honest with you, I may not mean you in particular but chances are it may be true anyway"…:rolleyes:
…I REALLY don’t think so!..
I said what I had to say. I don’t intend to email you to discuss points of view because I have students more advanced than you who deserve more attentions.
Good luck in your Wing Chun.
BTW, You are right about something!..I am a nice guy! That is why I respect others!
I believe the late WSL may have shared similar views that you share now. I recall reading an article where it talk about how he was disguisted by many MA schools out there and often went around challangeing the instructors, and often the schools closed down after this. Later in his careea he said he regretted such actions because even though a school may not be the greatest quality, it does still offer many people many things. There is room for diversity.
(forgive me if this isnt completey accurate, but im sure some of the WSL guys on the forum could confirm that gist of this story)
What will you do red? What really are your goals here? Say we all come to think “Hey, red’s right! we are all doing the wrong stuff! Lets all study what red studies!” Guess what… everyone cant! Your teacher can only teach so many people, and most of us are in totally different continents!!
Actually i find it amazing that you could progress in Wc at all, your attitude is one that is unchanging once you make up your mind. You’re tunnel visioned and not open to advice from people who obviously have much to offer (countless people on the forum have offered to you, but your too blind to ..or is it stuborness?.. to take any on board )
Im probably wasting energy saying this as you seem to brush over everything unless you have said it. Maybe i’ll just hit the ignore button.
Minor stuff, but I think KJ (who studies directly with Chung sifu?) would be red’s kung-fu aunt (junior, if she began after red’s sifu), while David would be his “cousin” (still Sihing to be polite) as I believe he studies under red’s sibak, Ben Der. Usually, when a senior in your own lineage takes the trouble to offer you their experience and insight, especially on a topic of such immense importance as Mo Duk (Wude, Martial Morality), it’s worth its weight in gold. (red, if you think “real” Wing Chun is dying, “real” Mo Duk is almost extinct and for the very reasons you use to explain/excuse your behavior).
On to a question: Red, you’ve often asked, in one way or another, if people would empty their cup if it came to a better teacher. What about a different art? What if you had a chance (maybe you already have, but this is theoretical ) to meet a noted Chen stylist, a world-class Thai boxer, a champion Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter, etc. and they (or their beginner students) just tore you apart. Would you leave WCK altogether and take up Chen or Thai or BJJ or ROSS/RMA, or whatever?
Red, why do you presume to know all the technicalities and lecture people who are, in terms of Wing Chun experience, by far your seniors? Many of the points you make are, well, obvious. Unimpressive. I am merely a beginner but I am left wondering why you bothered. Surely you should be seeking lectures, not offering them?
So if someone were to actually come to your kwoon, and decide for themselves that your style was inferior (I’m not saying it is - this is hypothetical) and could not compare to what they were learning, would you graciously accept their point of view or would you chalk it up to them not understanding?
I really do not think that people are saying that your posts are without any merit. What they are saying is that your style of writing (marketing and worship) is outrageous. People do not want to hear that their style is worthless about as much as you would like to hear the same about your Wing Chun and your Sifu. It’s all about showing a little respect.
What actually makes you think that you are at a level to judge who’s Wing Chun is good or bad? And then ask yourself good or bad for whom? Have you ever thought that someone may be learning Wing Chun for different reasons than you? Have you ever thought that what you know right now is only the first step to what you really need to understand? Many of the posters on this board have already walked in your shoes and know that which they talk about. No blind regurgitation.
The fact that you keep posting the same thing even though no one wants to hear it speaks volumes in and of itself.
Spectre, great, my style of writing doesnt work for you, then skip over and commet on the subject and the meat of it. Why are so many people concerned so much with what I think?
Axiom, no presumptions, you should read my original post again here, because I made it quite clear that I understand I have a long way to go, but I am being imparted with an understanding that is much deeper then is typical.
RR - I understand the ideas od Wu De, but am not interested necessarily in archaic practices. I owe loyalty to Carl, If I were to meet Kath Jo and she impressed me as someone of good character who can teach me something then great, same with anyone else in my lineage but Ken, who passed on his knowledge to Carl. Otherwise they get civility and freindliness and the respect I give any one else. Just because they disagree with me doesnt mean they are right or that I should drop everything I am doing or saying.
For the rest who have like to make claims of having done it longer, great but you should know my stance on that by now, if you have been doing bad wingchun for 10 years, then it is still bad wingchun!
Respect is one thing but I feel the way I feel, and I understand my way of posting has offended some, I have tried to tone it back as much as I am interested in. If people dont like it, then dont read it, but I have got enough of a positive response that I am going to keep posting and discussing.
As for your question, no, I would not switch. If I got beat by someone the very first thing I would look at would be myself and what I could have done better or what I could have done or the knowledge I am missing taht would have allowed me to win the fight. thats my whole point, why study mediocre when you can look for the best? I practice wingchun because I like it and think it can hold its own against everything else out there. If there is a failure at some point, and I think I am studying the best I could only assume the failure is within myself
pvwingchun - Just check out my post over the last two weeks to see what I define as good and bad. The problem with discussing them over the internet is that many people talk about these things but not all of them do it.
Someone seriously needs to go back and learn how to learn. No Wing Chun can be good without knowing how to learn.
Originally posted by red5angel Spectre, great, my style of writing doesnt work for you…
Can you find anyone on this board other than yourself that it does work for?
Originally posted by red5angel Why are so many people concerned so much with what I think?
You keep missing the point. People could care less about what you think - everyone is entitled to an opinion. Stop advertising and criticizing.
Originally posted by red5angel …I made it quite clear that I understand I have a long way to go, but I am being imparted with an understanding that is much deeper then is typical.
With such a long way to go, what qualifies you to say that your understanding is deeper than typical? What is the typical IN YOUR EXPERIENCE?
Originally posted by red5angel I understand the ideas od Wu De, but am not interested necessarily in archaic practices.
Since when did it become archaic to show respect and humility?
Originally posted by red5angel Otherwise they get civility and freindliness and the respect I give any one else.
You must have a problem making friends.
Originally posted by red5angel If there is a failure at some point, and I think I am studying the best I could only assume the failure is within myself.
Looking at your posts, I highly doubt you could ever believe that failure is within yourself.
Kevin, would you like to go back and read my post again please? I said I have got plenty of positive responses, negative as well but you take the bad with the good.
As for respect and humility, I have both, but they are not needed at all times. Respect is given on a general level to anyone (If you had been reading my post you would notice that I often point out I am not talking about specific people, just wing chun practitioners in general, if you get upset at my post, then you must have an issue there.) but anything above that must be earned.
I recommend that if you dont want to trust me, go see Carl for yourself.
r5a: “I have never made claims to be the best, just that I feel I am studying the best.”
Didn’t you use to think that your first wc intstructor was great until he got beat by Carl? After that, didn’t you switch over to Carl’s teachings because you saw how good he was and how he was able to handle your first instructor?
Well, what if some other wc instructor came along one day and bet your current sifu Carl? Would you then decide to switch over to that lineage and proclaim them to be the best?
I’m asking this because you keep on saying that everything out there is crap and that they just “don’t have it.” Well, just what if someone did come along and bet your sifu, would you then go and say that Carl just “doesn’t have it” and move on to that lineage?
There are a lot of good wc sifus out there that has a lot to offer if you would just open your eyes and look. If you truely believe that you are “studying the best,” then I don’t think that you will ever “get it” either.
If we don’t do it exactly like you is that good or bad? Keep in mind that we adhere to the Wing Chun Principles, believe in respect and humility, follow the teachings of Ip Man as they were handed to us, yet this may impart stylisitic and interpretative (is this a word) differences.
Another question, “What would you say drives the art of Wing Chun?” Example, is it technique, or pinciples, or sensitivity, etc…
Churn- Ging - as I dont speak for Carl I cant tell you what he would do but I would stick with him. If carl met someone who could beat him he would definitely find out how, or why, and pass that on to me. I doubt there are many people out there who could however, of course that is just my opinion.
I did not abandon my first sfiu because of Carl, I dropped him like a bad habit because he sucked, plain and simple and then began my search for the best that I could find. Now that I have found it, I will study it and work with it.
No surprise R5A but we definitely disagree. Respect and Humility should be practised at all times.
I have read every single one of your posts R5A. Some start out pretty decent and then resort to advertising and criticizing. Perhaps you should go back and read everyone else’s posts.
It is very easy to say that you do not speak for anyone but yourself, but when you speak about your lineage, your character (Respect and Humility included) does reflect upon others.
Have you even considered that the ‘bad’ Wing Chun that you have seen is still a work in progress? I am sure there is quite a bit of ‘bad’ Wing Chun that you do - but you are still learning. And learning is an eternal journey.
While I have no doubt that Carl may be an upstanding gentleman and an exceptional Wing Chun practitioner, he is not the end all - be all of Wing Chun.
Everyone has already said that they think it is great that you have found a sifu that you like and that you are enthusiastic about learning. But don’t shove YOUR solution down other people’s throat.
The only thing that everyone else has asked for is for you to stop advertising and criticizing. Once again - perhaps you should go back and read everyone else’s postings.
> I understand the ideas od Wu De, but am not interested necessarily in archaic practices
WCK could be seen as an archaic practice to some. In any event, ever heard the famous Mark Twain saying (which I’ll paraphrase since the exact words escape me). “When I left my father some seven years ago, he was an idiot. When I returned, I was surprised to see how much he’d learned in such a short time.” This shows the wonderful hubres of a child, who even after maturing to realize how much his father really knows, still hasn’t matured enough to realize it was he himself who learned, not his father.
> As for your question, no, I would not switch. If I got beat by someone the very first thing I would look at would be myself and what I could have done better or what I could have done or the knowledge I am missing
What if they took you apart so systematically that you were certain nothing more you could do would matter? (If you met Thai boxer Carl, for example?) And if still no, shouldn’t that apply then to other people in WCK? They like their lineages as much as you like WCK and just because they may have some faults, doesn’t mean they aren’t working on them, even as you work on yours.
) to meet a noted Chen stylist, a world-class Thai boxer, a champion Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu fighter, etc. and they (or their beginner students) just tore you apart. Would you leave WCK altogether and take up Chen or Thai or BJJ or ROSS/RMA, or whatever?