Red5Angel... are your training partners serious?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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You wrote: “Not only that but some people just dont take the martial arts in general, seriously enough. I have met plenty of people who sort of treat it as an excersise program.”

You’ve said before how hard you train, and I’ve no reason to doubt you. You’ve also made comments before about people who turn up to class and train, but don’t do any more. This, I’m sure, is fine too in your book, though perhaps you think it creates weak Wing Chun… something else you’ve spoken about. Clearly, you think Wing Chun should be studied seriously.

So my questions are… at the class you train in, are there students who are less serious in their training than yourself?

If they don’t take their Wing Chun as seriously (ie. they only train a couple of times a week), do you think this damages your lineage’s Wing Chun?

What if they train at class, but do it for the art, not the fighting… does this also damage the Wing Chun from Carl’s lineage?

Would all of the above lead to your lineage producing weak Wing Chun, the sort you’ve lambasted so much in past threads?

Duncan

2

oh ee oh ar ar
wing chun, whalla whalla bing bang
i saw the witch doctor, he told me what to say.
he said that i would win if i did this to you
oh baby, wing chun, whalla whalla bing bang

now, let the fun begin.

B&B i think that you think to much.:wink:
dude, those are some serious questions, to which i’m sure red will have some serious, yet simple, direct and economical answers.
vts

3

Hey B and B good question! Some of the people I traini with in class do it as a hobby, One, a dancer does it to help her dancing so you could say she does it for the art more then anything, although she is sort of excited to start sparring seriously when she gets there. Some are more serious. One of them comes over to my place every sunday and we train for 2-4 hours depending on what else is going on that day.
I do think ANYTHING should be studied seriously, otherwise why bother? I dont half azz any of my hobbies. I keep my hobbies to a minimum so I can devote a smuch time to each as I think is good to really be applying myself.
Not taking wingchun seriously doesnt do the damage, unless it is combined with the desire to teach it, or to use it. If you just want to go down to the local dojo/kwoon to kick some bags get some excersise, etc… fine, just understand the limitations you have put on yourself as to the understanding o fthe art. If you dont take wingchun seriously, then you wont fully understand it.
I will say this, if someone in my clas sisnt taking it seriously enough to apply themselves then training with them can do more harm then good and I wont bother touching hands with them. there are plenty of people there trying to get better to whatever degree that I dont have to waste my time. Fortunately we have a pretty good group. Some of my classmates may not have the passion and the drive to excel at it, but thats ok.
None of them express the desire to teach or to use it outside of class and home like I do. I am pursuing not only the knowledge and understanding but I want to get into some tournemants while I am young.

4

Hi

R5A says: “Some of my classmates may not have the passion and the drive to excel at it, but thats ok.”

Ouch! You’d better hope they don’t train in earnest because with comments like that they’re going to come gunning for you! :slight_smile:

My point however, is that your class, like every other class regardless of which MA it is, has some good, some bad, some experience, some inexperienced practitioners.

It’s a bit rough to critique other classes, lineage etc, and say what they do isn’t WC, when there are people in your own class that I may look at and could say the same thing.

Those people that “may not have the passion or drive” will not perform Ken’s or Carl’s WC in the way you would, but it would be wrong for us to tear their WC to pieces. Do they have your root, structure, precision or sensitivity? No. Does it mean their WC sucks? Is this a reflection on your Sifu?

Your call, R5A.

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Black and Blue - first of all my classmates understand exactly what I am saying and dont assume any other tone then sincerety. I am acknowledged by my class mates as one o fthe hardest working students in our class, it doesnt lessen what they do in anyway since they set their own priorities. Unlike the internet, in reality we dont assume that something thta sounds offensive is.

“Those people that “may not have the passion or drive” will not perform Ken’s or Carl’s WC in the way you would”

this is an incorrect statement. Although they dont put in as much time as I do they still practice the same things and so will be doing the same wing chun I am. While putting in more time MAY put me on a faster learning track, they are still learning and practicing excellent wingchun and will have a good level of skill, they may not reach it as fast as I do but that is of no matter. you could not say the same thing of my class mates that I say about some wing chun because it is not true. although they do not practice as much as I they are still practicing very good wing chun. The difference is only time put in. I think anyone who is willing to put in an hour a day, not an issue for most people, then they will get it and they will get good. they will have my root structure, sensitivity etc, some have it better already! the dancer in our clas shas superb body control and excellent root and sensitivity. A friend of mine who joined has an awesome root, even after just a few months of training! Take those things earned elsewhere or gained naturally and add to it consistant, intelligent practice and you have a good formula.

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“you could not say the same thing of my class mates that I say about some wing chun because it is not true. although they do not practice as much as I they are still practicing very good wing chun. The difference is only time put in.”

Well, I could say it and it might be true. No matter how good your Sifu some of you students might suck. My Sifu is, IMO, amazing. That isn’t to say my Wing Chun is equally as good. It is isn’t.

If some of your classmates treat it as a light hobby, put little time in, and don’t want to fight, they might ‘do’ your WC, but they probably can’t actually do it in a fight.

If I saw them fight, or came to a class, it would be rash of me to say what they’re doing is wrong based on what I saw at that moment. If you look at those in YOUR class are you impressed? Would I be. Would the posters on this forum be? Would it be fair for us to judge ‘your’ WC based on ‘their’, let us say, half-hearted training?

This is what you’ve done, it seems to me, to many other WC groups.

7

I could agree with you on the idea that some students, regardless of Sifu, style, whatever, might not get it. however, with the stuff we are learning, if you want to get it, and apply yourself it is extremely accessible to just about anyone. I believe that it is much more accessible then most.

“If some of your classmates treat it as a light hobby, put little time in, and don’t want to fight, they might ‘do’ your WC, but they probably can’t actually do it in a fight.”

this is incorrect. I fthey are practicing it regularly, whether they want to fight or not, if they HAVE to, the stuff they are learning will be a defnite edge. They might not be able to take it to UFC or Pride but they wont need to. If your wingchun does not work this way maybe you need to re-evaluate it? Wingchun is supposed to be more accessible to those who dont posess as much ‘fighting potential’ as the larger, faster, or stronger members of our race.
If you walked into out school and saw us doing crap then why would you be impressed? If you saw that we were doing something, probably similar to what you do, but much more precise, shouldnt you be?

“This is what you’ve done, it seems to me, to many other WC groups.”

No, what I have done is said that while most wing chun people talk about the things they should be doing, they arent doing them to the degree they should be. some out of half hearted training, some out of non interest in really seeking out the answers, some are just being misled. Those who are serious about their training are hopefully seeking out the best they can find and training it. Laziness to me is no excuse. You can make up all the excuses you want, no money, no time, whatever, but if you cant find the money, or find the time, you dont want it that bad.

You want to know what I think the most ironic thing on this forum is? Most are interested in pointing out scales of time, how long seems to be a big item, but no one wants to talk about how much. When I mention that no matter how long you have been practicing, 10 years, 20 years, whatever, if it is crap, it is still going to be crap, nothing, a few weak excuses or diversions but nothing solid…hmmmmmmm

8

r5a

What B&B said has a point. If some of your classmates are there learning from Carl, but are only putting in a half hearted effort into their training, then their wing chun will be crap, period. I don’t care if they are learning from the “best” wing chun lineage there is. If they don’t really want to learn, then they aren’t going to learn anything even if they are learning from Carl, or Ken.

9

Most are interested in pointing out scales of time

The context of that almost solely involves a particular individual who feels he is experienced emough to pontificate about WC, fighting, etc. after less than a year of what he regards as decent training.

When I mention that no matter how long you have been practicing, 10 years, 20 years, whatever, if it is crap, it is still going to be crap

No one has argued with that statement. More they have argued with you about your quickness to label other peoples’ systems as such without even having seen some of them, and your lack of experience with which to make judgements of that nature.

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If you saw that we were doing something, probably similar to what you do, but much more precise, shouldnt you be?

How do u know that?

david

11

What if you take an insanely serious person who trains like a crazy wing chun machine but does not, due to whatever factors, can only progress at the same rate as a wacko who just goofs off? Same results; just different intent. Now say that you are not privy to the knowledge of which is which. Is it fair to judge? Now say you do know which is which. Since they are at the same skill level, is it fair to put down one or the other? What’s your boggle?

12

“What’s your boggle?”, reminds me of Demolition Man :smiley:

Really i don’t see it either…? Train hard, understand the skill you’re being taught, develop it… maybe even teach. That’s the way to help wing chun spread properly… and many people are already doing this.

david

13

Much of the discussion on this thread is self referential and self-centred, much of which as usual comes from the redboy.

It is your instructor’s values that determine who a student trains with, not you the student. If your Sifu offers instruction to a person, you as a student should respect that. Most decent instructors offer instruction to all, only cutting off those who through deed have shown themselves to be bad for the group. My Sifu booted a guy last week for continuing to use finger and knuckle gouges on junior students during rolling after THREE warnings over a period of months to desist.

Contrary to the opinions of some neophytes, this is not an easy thing to become good at or stick with. Most students hit plateaus after the initial period of exuberance (maybe 7-8 months?) when they find limitations within themselves that require months or years of work to get around. People change their interests to something in which success is less elusive.

The reality is that MOST people give up MA either after a few weeks, months or years. We have a very good record for student retention, but still only about 1% of people that train with us once or more make it through to instructor level, and a few have left right after doing just that.

Some people may not become the best fighters or be the most skilful. We have a guy who trains with us who has CP. The cojones it takes him to travel to the school, make his way out into a classful of people, and try his guts out to do things the average guy finds so easy he doesn’t need to even think about them just leaves me breathless. I’d take him as a student over someone who came on like red5angel in a heartbeat.

We had a professional dancer at our school too, he was a si-hing of mine. He was in video clips by a godawful singer called Peter Andre some Aussies may remember with a cringe. He also became state supermiddleweight kickboxing champion. As fast, powerful and flexible as. Don’t diss a dancer, they might just beat you down like the proverbial red-headed stepchild. Most of them have a work ethic that makes most KF guys look like bums.

If your Sifu lets someone in the class, then you should train happily with them. Leave the judgements of other peoples’ motivations to those who need to concern themselves with them. Sometimes it’s good to train with the unskilled or less skilled too, they can surprise you.

Respect other people if you expect the same in return.

14

Oh my God!

Peter Andre!!! This chap hit the UK charts a few years back. Urgh! Seems to have disappeared… thank God. :slight_smile:

Red5Angel,

I don’t know, I guess it’s a case of each to his own. My way of training/learning may not be the same as yours, but I think my way is equally good. I guess we shouldn’t judge others WC too quickly.

If ever you’re in the UK drop me a line and we’ll hook up. You can come meet my Sifu, participate in a class, see what you think. Now, tell me more about that red-head you train with and her root! :wink:

Duncan

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Bravo, anerlich. It is a joy to read such eloquence.

Respect other people if you expect the same in return.

Amen.

Regards,

  • kj
16

>> No, what I have done is said that while most wing chun people talk about the things they should be doing, they arent doing them to the degree they should be. <<

For you to make such a statement, you would have had to closely observe the training methods of ALL Wing chunners.

To repeat, you can only say “Most” when you have seen “All”.

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anerlich

That was one excellent post! As one on the upward/plateau curve, that story on the CP chap was inspirational!

Leave the judgements of other peoples’ motivations to those who need to concern themselves with them.

--------------------------You Rawk d00d!