Real Life:What would you have done?

I pulled this from my own thread about bizaar things…

New York Daily News
Sunday, December 22, 2002; Page A20

NEW YORK, Dec. 21 – On a desolate fringe of a Queens, N.Y., park, a gang of homeless men set upon a woman and dragged her into their squalid encampment, raping her for two hours while police began a frantic search. The 42-year-old victim finally was rescued when a police dog picked up her scent, tracked her to the hobo jungle and sank his teeth into one of the men who brutalized her, authorities said.

“It is a horrendous crime,” Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said as the five assailants were booked on kidnapping, robbery, rape and sodomy charges.

The attack occurred at 10 p.m. Thursday at Flushing Meadows-Corona Park, on a deserted pedestrian path linking Shea Stadium and the National Tennis Center.

Sitting on a bench, the woman and a male friend were jumped by a band of homeless men who beat and robbed them.

The mob then grabbed the woman and pulled her down a flight of stairs to a Long Island Rail Road platform, across the tracks and deep into the woods.

Amid the thick brush, the men had put up several shacks patched together from wood, cardboard and plastic – described by one investigator as human “bird’s nests.”

The huts were filled with old mattresses and piles of garbage. They were so filthy that one policeman said he planned to throw out his shoes after stepping inside.

In one of the ramshackle shelters – impossible to see from even a short distance – the men took turns beating and raping the woman.

Her friend had raced off, found a passerby with a cell phone and called police, who quickly swarmed the park.

For two hours, police searched the sprawling grounds with dogs for a trace of the woman and her captors.

As police closed in, two of the suspects, Victor Cruz, 22, and Jose Hernandez, 18, ran out of the woods and were captured.

A 10-year-old German shepherd named Sean and his handler, Officer Kim Flechaus, were the first to reach the shack where the victim was held.

“It was awful. We couldn’t find her, and then the dog went nuts,” one investigator said.

The bloodied woman, naked from the waist down, apparently heard the cops and bolted. She told them one of her attackers was still inside.

The dog was sent in, and he ripped into suspect Louis Carmona, 20, authorities said. After a brief standoff, the dog then pulled Carlos Rodriguez, 22, and Jesus Torres, 28, from a second shanty nearby.

Three of the five suspects were treated at the hospital for dog bites.

When they were led out of the 110th Precinct stationhouse Friday night, they wore only hospital gowns because their clothes were seized for evidence. Shivering, they tried to cover their faces as they walked past.

The viciousness of the assault recalled the 1989 rape of a jogger in Central Park, which ended with the convictions of five teenagers being tossed out Thursday. Convicted rapist and killer Matias Reyes confessed to the crime.

“This is eerily similar to the whole Central Park thing,” an NYPD source said. “Everyone is crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s to make sure history does not repeat itself.”

The gang rape also bore similarities to a group attack on a Brooklyn woman last month in Lincoln Terrace Park in Crown Heights. Those assailants are still at large.

© 2002 The Washington Post Company

I definitely would NOT have done what that guy did - I would’ve tried to help get her away safely, even if I had to stay and fight them while she ran for help. Instead, he ran for help and left her there. Here’s another write up about it that tells his side:

When five homeless men dragged a 42-year-old woman through Flushing Meadows-Corona Park, her companion thought he would never see her alive again.
“I thought they were going to kill her,” the 38-year-old watch salesman told the Daily News last night.

The Washington Heights man, who asked that his name be withheld, described the terror of the attack and his desperate search for help.

It began when a gang surrounded him and a female friend as they headed to the Willets Point subway station.

“I knew something was going to happen. I told her to run,” he said.

But before they could flee, the men knocked them to the ground and began kicking them. Then, a few of them started to haul off the woman.

The man said he felt helpless.

“I thought if I went where she was, they would kill me,” he said. “I got up and started running away, looking for help.”

Bleeding, he raced to the subway, but the token clerk didn’t speak Spanish. Fortunately, a young man who did loaned him his cell phone to call 911.

They didn’t wait for police but ran back to the attack scene to find his friend, “but they had already taken her away.”

“I was desperately looking for her. But I didn’t know where they took her,” he said.

Within minutes, police arrived and launched a massive hunt for the woman - but by the time they found her, she had been gang-raped and beaten.

The man said she was distraught over her ordeal and “in no condition to talk.”

Originally published on December 21, 2002

I would have gone ballistic and started laying out all around me. But that’s just me; I could easily have ended up broken and bleeding and unable to get the help the guy in the story did.

However, chances are that if I caused enough damage they may have decided to try for another victim. Pack animals tend to operate that way. I would have tried to spot the leader among them and taken him down hard first.

But all this is easy to say in the comfort of not being there, then.

What would you done, Rogue? :wink:

Chances are I would have avoided the attack altogether by just being aware of the situation. This has worked well for me in the past. Yeaers ago, when I used to write comics for a living, I was headed to a rave party hosted by Roger Corman’s studio. Two artists who worked with me, who were liabilities at best in a fight, were walking with me to the party. I spotted some guys on either side of the street converging on us. By spreading out and depriving them of a pefect ‘close’ - along with my grinning ear to ear (I used to love ‘live practice’) and walking right up to whom I sized up as the leader, all pretty much defused it.

That same night, that same street, someone from the comicon got robbed and stabbed. I can’t gaurentee it was the same group, but there was trouble coming from those guys, and awareness helped defuse it.

Awareness is the best defense.

Secondly, if I was in the zone there like that couple in Queens, I would have responded like Seven said.

Seeing as I have an opposable thumb and am a tool-weilding animal, they may be surprised to find themselves in a knife fight. Although chances are it would start with a ‘found’ object - my coffee, a rock, you name it. By taking the fight to them first, I would have the element of surprise, giving me the opportunnity to saturate thier intention and destroy thier ability to function as a group.

Since I had an arguably defenseless woman with me, I would take Chang Dong Sheng’s advice and show no mercy.

i would have just laid there and cried.

All of the guys who did this were young, they could have been in enough shape to do some serious damage to someone who resisted.
Not that that would have stopped me form killing on of them.

This argues the case for concealed and carry laws.

If you can’t legally carry a gun, then pepper spray or mace. I also love those collapsable batons.

My personal recipe for streetfighting is pepper spray in the left hand, baton in the right.

A knife is a little too messy and brutal. Handguns are the best, but have the most legal issues.

It’s bad to sit here on KFO spouting of “could’ve, would’ve, should’ves”. Odds are, you and the woman “would’ve” ended up dead. As cowardly as it “seems” to be, the guy did the right thing. Dead men tell no tales, as they say.

One against a bunch is a fantasy without having an ace up your sleeve, and empty handed martial arts are not that “ace”. Most martial artists, myself included, have more than we can handle against one real attacker, let alone five. Give me a baton and pepper spray, then the odds change drastically. The real trick is keeping hold of the weapon.

Monkey slap-- you’re lucky that this little bit of machismo “- along with my grinning ear to ear (I used to love ‘live practice’) and walking right up to whom I sized up as the leader, all pretty much defused it.” didn’t get you killed.

What a sad story. I hate hearing about this type of thing, it really saddens me.

I am glad to be able to read this kind of thing though because it helps me stay more aware and on edge of how dangerous things can be if your not careful. Thanks for posting it even for awareness alone it helps.

If the guy would have had a gun and know how to use it and had some training chances are they would be safe and a few bums would be dead. When you think about it the chances of five guys coming up and attacking you without you realizing something was happening are slim. I am sure he at least had an idea they were coming, maybe not what they were going to do but he could have prepaired in case something were to happen.

Oh-well, I just hope it never happens to me and my wife or friends, I would rather chase them down and die then to let that happen to a loved one.

MightyB,

I can see were your coming from but it depends a lot on the situation. As I said above if it is a loved one that is close to me then I don't care if there are 10 to fight if it helps them escape.

You made a good point about keeping a hold of a weapon, it is a lot easier to lose your grip on a weapon than a lot of people think.

Edit: Where the guys convicted? it says “When they were led out of the 110th Precinct stationhouse Friday night, they wore only hospital gowns because their clothes were seized for evidence. Shivering, they tried to cover their faces as they walked past.” I would think it would be easy enough to convict them, they have their close, and they were at the scene so they had to know what was going on. If they were let lose then I hope their balls get frost bit and fall off and then they die of infection. If their guilty of course, that is up to our wonderful justice system to determine.

You’re right, Mighty B - I probably would’ve ended up seriously hurt or dead. The thread though, is what would you have done, and I know that’s what I would’ve done, because I’ve done it before. It was only one guy who I saw slam a woman down on concrete, but my reaction was the same - make sure she stays safe.

I think the first thing I would’ve avoided was sitting on a bench in an isolated park late at night with both of our backs turned the same direction. Once the guys were coming on, I probably would’ve fought as hard as I could until it was too late for both of us. Might’ve been worse than what really happened, but knowing what was coming I probably wouldn’t have been able to leave without giving my all.

Sevenstar, Intervene if you can.

I do advocate intervening if you can. A lot of crap wouldn’t happen if people acted like they gave a sh_t.

Years ago I read a self defense book that actually was good. It was written by a police officer/criminologist that went into major detail about a bunch of situations where people were murdered, raped, and whatever when there were people around who could’ve helped but chose to do nothing. It was a book that was more about awareness than technique. Wish I remembered the title. Confidence and common sense are two of the most major deterrants for crime. Criminals do look for easy prey.

Anyway, I once heard (maybe saw it on COPS) that police find domestic abuse calls to be some of the most dangerous that they can go on. This is because that usually the woman who is being beat or whatever will help her spouse/lover if you attack him, even if you were only intending to help her.

Dangerous stuff,

Carry batons, pepper spray, mace, whatever’s legal in your area. Heck, I can only speculate, but I think that this situation in particular would have been deterred if the guy would have “snapped” out a two and a half foot steel rod and made himself look real dangerous when the attackers made there initial approach. He may have looked a little paranoid to the lady, but she’d been better off because of it.

Put Tactical Batons on your Christmas lists folks.

Peace out and all that jazz,

The B

MightyB I have to disagree with you a little here. People feel safe in numbers but I have found that even in groups, often, if one shows enough will to not get hurt and to hurt your attackers then they will often give up. The group stuff I have seen usually at that point degenerates into name calling etc…
I do agree that the potential is higher then if it were one attacker but I am fighter and I would have fought, hard. Hopefully even buying time for the girl to get away, in my mind, her life for mine is a fair trade off.

really sad story …
it reminded me of one of the incident here when one of medical student was raped by knife yielding guys(four of them) n then raped…
it just ****es me off to the utmost…
all those rapist should be put in boiling oil, or something like sloooww painful death…they don’t hav any idea that the women/female will live a life which is already dead…

i dunno even if one hav pepper spray in hand how much it can save u…in the heat of situation it can get really nasty…n chance that u can’t even use pepper spary…
-TkdWarrior-

I would have gone ballistic and started laying out all around me. But that’s just me; I could easily have ended up broken and bleeding and unable to get the help the guy in the story did.

Reply]
Broken and bleeding?? They are destitiue homeless people, they couldn’t have been in any kind of shape to defend against a highly athletic and pis.ssed off kung Fu expert.

Still, the victems were ovbiusly trained at Chung Moo Quan or something (Dig, dig dig), which brings us to the concealed carry issue.

One or two shots in the air would have dispersed them with no harm done to anyone. If not, and they escalated the situation, two more into the brains of the more agressive of the bunch would surely have eneded it as well.

I just hope the victem did not “pick up” anything she will not be able to get rid of. :frowning:

I have never in my life gone anywhere on foot at night without at least 5 other people. Least of all to a deserted park. If I need to neck with someone privately, I’ll use my car.

That said, I’ve also never visited New York without my folding baton, so in the unlikely event I wound up in said situation, I’d’ve probably grabbed her and ran like hell. I figure the gang of guys will probably be running at different speeds, so if the ones in the front are gaining on me, a quick turn on the heel, smack upside the head/knee with the baton, and immediately resume running might well be enough to get us to safety.

Of course, this is what I’d like to think I’d do. My reaction in an actual adrenaline-dump, tunnel-vision situation might be very different.

That is actually a really good tactic. Similar to what i might do.

When facing the crew, “Isolate, kill and run” In that order.

tacticle battons??

Hey, NOONE can legislate how hard your hands/fists can be, you are allowed to carry them ANYWHERE (except up the skirt of another man’s wife :eek: ), so soak up that Jow boys, and start hitting them beans!!!

Originally posted by TkdWarrior
i dunno even if one hav pepper spray in hand how much it can save u…in the heat of situation it can get really nasty…n chance that u can’t even use pepper spary…
-TkdWarrior-

Just like martial arts, you need to practice using it, and also, you can get the more fool proof type of spray - the foam. They have a pepper foam that foams up and spreads after it touches its target. Even if you miss his eyes and hit just below them, it will foam up and get in them anyway. That guy will be your opening - run past him. Of course, you may not be able to use it effectively, but any chance is far better than none.

I odn’t know about legislation in other states but here in minnesota carrying a baton of any sort, much less using it can get you in some serious trouble.
I went through this a few years ago because the local rennaissance festival I do secrurity and medical response for, made some of the security guys stop carrying them because of the legal liability.
Although personally I think it was a good choice anyway, too many people going to get themselves in trouble carrying those things around!

Interesting how most take the Sunnyday Scenerio. Put yourself in the guys shoes. For some reason you foqued up. Maybe they were hidden, maybe you saw them but thought your martial artist bass@ss vibe would scare them off but there you are in the same situation they were in, getting beaten and robbed. First shot was theirs?

What would you done, Rogue?
I really don’t know. I’ve been in one 5/4 on two and did OK, but that was with an ex-cop and when I was at my peak. I’ve defended my wife and myself several times but that was against drunks. My wife fought off one guy once by herself. With all that said I’m still trying to think through what would be the best thing to do and what I would have done. I have my rules for what to do with crime and number #1 is, crime scene one is always better than crime scene number two.
I think the guy did the best he could, and he would have been a second victim because that was his mindset. Still I think he did the best thing given what happened. I’d hope that my awareness was up, my blade was in my hand and we were moving towards a safe place. If I was surprised(which most trained martial artists never think about) my best hope would be to survive the initial attack and then hope to have enough wits left to think about the best option to do next, which might be fight, track them(at night this would be real fun) or run for help. Think about it, follow them into their playground or go get help that has guns and dogs?