Seven Star,
Your right on the $$ with the Pepper foam thing. I think the best part of it is the fact that it stiks to the attacker instead of getting caught on the wind and blowing back in your own face incapacitating you as well as the attacker. Regualr pepper spray has been known to do that.
Rogue,
I have sucsessfully fought of 5 on 1 before, but not skilled fighters. They were party animal burnout types. Still young enough to be strong, and not veteran homelss. So i see how I reacted then, and I know someone with a fighting disposition and some experiance can do it, BUT a homeless person will probably be armed with something sharp. Doubtful they can afford a real knife, but still anyone can lift as steak knife from somewhere like a relatives house, soup kitchen, or some such place.
Your right about the “Alertness” comment. Fighting skill means nothing if your aleady out cold.
Everyone,
If this guy had no fighting experiance, or skill he deffinately did the right thing.
Thoses of us who hang on THIS forum, would have been far more qualified to make a much stronger choice. Lets not forget what would WORK easliy for us, will get a regular civilian killed.
I’d fight: That very well may give them the chance to take the woman. You’re busy raining destruction on some of them while the rest grab the woman. Same if she ran.
I’d take out the leader and the rest would run: Could work against punks but these guys are homeless. Punks don’t make good bums. Homeless are usually homeless because they are criminals, nuts or have lived enough hardship to not be scared of the leader going down. And who’s to say they had a leader?
I’d follow them: Moving on unknown terrain in the dark while scared or mad is exciting to say the least.
I’d use my official bad@ss martial arts vibe so they wouldn’t mess with me: Please see number 2. They’ve seen scarier stuff than most of us.
I think this one was as no-win as you could get and a great example to play what-if against. So far for every solution I’ve come up with there was an immediate downside that jumped right out at me.
I ran this scenario in my head a few times. Me and my wife sitting on a park bench…
How could someone not fight? Like there’s any other option. Sorry ya got gang-banged by a bunch of bums, honey, but I was afraid they would kill me. Buncha pu$$ies.
I ran this scenario in my head a few times. Me and my wife sitting on a park bench…
How could someone not fight? Like there’s any other option. Sorry ya got gang-banged by a bunch of bums, honey, but I was afraid they would kill me. Buncha pu$$ies.
So you’d say that you could win. Have you thought under what circumstances would you lose? Losing meaning dead or might as well be dead. Let’s say you fought, what would keep them from still grabbing your wife? How would you fight and still protect her? What if you lost, the crime is now unreported and instead of getting raped for 2 hours
she’s theirs for however long they want to keep her around doing whatever they want. At best she’s theirs for more than two hours at worst she ends up dead. So is fighting still the best option?
Would you be willing to sacrifice your self image for the best choice for her?
I would fight, but, I would tend to avoid the situation in the first place. I think about it if it was my wife or a friend of mine, I’d have to fight, but, the site of me standing up and hearing the “kashink” of my two foot tactical baton while I stare right at them usually is enough. You might get a couple of comments about being loco from them, but fukem, they’re bums, who cares what they think.
Here’s something about batons, you have to be willing to kill them just as you would if it were a gun in your hand. Otherwise, it won’t save you, you have to be intent on killing, not maiming, you don’t have that option, but killing. Any hesitation on your part gets you five bums armed with a club.
Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[B]Seven Star,
Your right on the $$ with the Pepper foam thing. I think the best part of it is the fact that it stiks to the attacker instead of getting caught on the wind and blowing back in your own face incapacitating you as well as the attacker. Regualr pepper spray has been known to do that.
[/B]
I’ve had that happen to me before - it sucks. Luckily, it wasn’t in an altercation. I bought some for my mom and was testing it out. after I sprayed it, the wind decided to pick up, and blew it right back into my face.
So you’d say that you could win. Have you thought under what circumstances would you lose? Losing meaning dead or might as well be dead. Let’s say you fought, what would keep them from still grabbing your wife? How would you fight and still protect her? What if you lost, the crime is now unreported and instead of getting raped for 2 hours
she’s theirs for however long they want to keep her around doing whatever they want. At best she’s theirs for more than two hours at worst she ends up dead. So is fighting still the best option?
Would you be willing to sacrifice your self image for the best choice for her? [/B]
By fighting, she has a better chance to escape. If I fight three and two take off after her, she may be able to get away from those two. Even if I lose, she has a much better chance as the ones I was fighting now have to play catch up. If I was still conscious after losing, I would do what the guy did, then go looking for them.
In the event that I win against the three, then I can now go after the other two. reagardless of whether you win or lose, her overall chance of survival is increased if I fight.
Rogue, WD is right, I don’t know what these guys are going to do with my wife and I could live with myself better knowing I tried and failed then I ran and failed. To me it’s not the end that is the point, this girl was “lucky” in that she did not get killed, but who knows and would you gamble that way with your loved ones life? Not me, better to die fighting then to attend my wifes funeral in shame.
I am with WD again in saying I don’t think this is even debateable with me. The biggest reason I train in the martial arts is so if something like this happens I have a chance, because either way I am fighting.
“Broken and bleeding?? They are destitiue homeless people, they couldn’t have been in any kind of shape to defend against a highly athletic and pis.ssed off kung Fu expert.”
Not all of us are expert. And we all know how many of us train full contact.
Substitute destitute for desperate and it changes the situation.
"I would fight, but, I would tend to avoid the situation in the first place. "
that goes without saying, but accidents happen, and bad situations crop up.
I personally would probably fight like a f*cking wild thing until I was dead or they let go of her, but like Rogue said, what if you’re unconcious and they take her? You don’t know where she is, you don’t know where to search for her…
I think the logical “correct” answer is (if you’re in a situation where you’re gonna come off worse) to go get help.
But I would question (without being disrespectful to the guy) his attachment to her. The report sites him as “a male friend”, therefore if he was thinking clearly he prob. thought
“****, I could end up unable to get help if I fight these guys, and help no-one. I’ll be more use to her if I go get help”
But if it was my girlfriend, or any of you guys’ wives, I’m sure logic would go out of the f*cking window and I would just tear into them until the situation was resolved that way.
By fighting, she has a better chance to escape. If I fight three and two take off after her, she may be able to get away from those two. Even if I lose, she has a much better chance as the ones I was fighting now have to play catch up. If I was still conscious after losing, I would do what the guy did, then go looking for them.
In the event that I win against the three, then I can now go after the other two. reagardless of whether you win or lose, her overall chance of survival is increased if I fight.
Right Sevenstar. It has nothing to do with how one feels or about being a wussie, it’s a matter of increasing the odds of survival.
Strong’s four rules to follow:
React immediately – your best chance to escape violence and minimize injury is in the first few seconds.
Resist – your only alternative is to submit; both choices are lousy, but resisting gives you the best chance. [Fear the criminal’s control of you more than his threats.]
Crime scene #2 – always more isolated than the initial point of contact, and always worse for you.
Never, never give up – your attitude can keep you alive when you’re badly injured.
There is no differencve between life and death in this situation. For your wife (and therefore your family) to live, you must create the space for her escape.
Even if you are surprised, your training should accomodate that, preparing your body for the unexpected. This is why we train Iron Body and other skills. Not to be ‘invincible’, but to give you an edge against the unexpected.
They might be armed, but I almost always am. It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.
I would never display my weapon as described above. It should be felt before it is seen. I used to have a collection of weapons that were displayerd to me when I was living in Chicago.
You must always be aware in your fighting of the weapons you do not see.
This is a multiple attacker scenario - in most jurisdictions you are justified in using deadly force. This not a schoolyard brawl.
Sure, you might lose. They might grab her while you are busy, any dozen scenarios could happen. Which why you resolve them in your body/mind in the practice hall, and in conflict you are a blade.
R5A, Think of the training a sport fighter does compared to the average martial artist. A well trained sport fighter is used to taking shots, recovering and going on. Though I’m not a sport fighter I know what damage I can take and still go on from all the sparring I’ve done and that’s worth more than all the applications I can pull from any form.
Monkeyslaps explanation of why he trains Iron Body is the same thing. It doesn’t matter how hard you can hit if you can’t take some good hits and recover.
That’s actually been my point on a few threads lately. Since I went from training TMA with wingchun to a little MMA for sport fighting, I can see where TMA is mostly lacking in certain aspects of training. I don’t think it’s an issue of whether the stuff works however, just taht most TMA people don’t train as hard as most MMA peeps.
Originally posted by MightyB
[B]I would fight, but, I would tend to avoid the situation in the first place. I think about it if it was my wife or a friend of mine, I’d have to fight, but, the site of me standing up and hearing the “kashink” of my two foot tactical baton while I stare right at them usually is enough. You might get a couple of comments about being loco from them, but fukem, they’re bums, who cares what they think.
Here’s something about batons, you have to be willing to kill them just as you would if it were a gun in your hand. Otherwise, it won’t save you, you have to be intent on killing, not maiming, you don’t have that option, but killing. Any hesitation on your part gets you five bums armed with a club. [/B]
Haha, that reminds me of something. My dad used to be a cop and he diffused more than one situation with just a baton and mostly it was the people backing down from him. Hehe, he is a big fellow though so that helps too.
You know, something else to think about when running scenes like this through your head is to imagine a worse case scenerio. You just came from a formal party and your in dress pants, shoes and shirt, you have no weapons or mace with you and your feeling sick. It would seem like a lot of these things can play a major factor in what you do. We may not always be in the ideal situation with sweatpants and knife ready to go. What I mean is it’s good to think about worse case scenerio too.
I agree though, I thought about this happening to me and my wife too and really I don’t see any other option than fighting it out the best I can and doing the most and most economical damage I can possibly do weather I just got out of class or I’m still wearing a easter bunny outfit for the local easter party.
And the guy that went and got help may have been a very wimpy little guy, not to be harsh or anything but maybe staying and fighting would have been equal to him putting a gun to his head and shooting himself.
I know one thing though I would not want to fight anyone defending his family unless I had the same motive. It seems like POS trying to get a thrill Vs. husband defending wife/familiy the POS would not have much motivation to fight but the husband is in a no option to lose mode, But… 5 POS Vs. one husband would be much harder to deal with.
If you run, and they drag her off, the chances of finding her alive are pretty close to 0%
This guy was dam.m lucky in this instance. In the real world, once he lost her, and by the time the cops got there, she could have been ANYWHERE with no help, protection or hope.
No, in this instance, you fight, you fight hard, and you fight relentlessly and you don’t stop untill you have her back SAFE. If that means killing them first, and asking questions later, you do that. Be fast, be brutal, be merciless.
I was attacked 5 on one once. To this day I live wth the guilt of maiming one guy so bad he was rummured to have been in the hospital for a week. Doctors had to pull what was left his rib cage out of his lungs and he almost died (So I’m told, I took off afterwords) BUT, I am alive and well, and me not being here now would have been a much greater price to pay then the guilt I carry.
Now, if I had been with a girl, failed to protect that girl wheather it be a Freind, Lover, Wife or whatever, I couldn’t live with myself.
Originally posted by rogue
[B]
Now how would you fight to protect someone in this situation? Keep them close, separate or something else?
[/B]
You gotta keep them close for as long as you can. that’s more dangerous for you, BUT the closer they are to you, the further they are from her. Also, with them being close, if one decides to take off after her, you hopefully won’t have to do alot of running to try and catch him. Plus, in close you can get off more power shots and stand a better chance of dropping them. however, they have that same advantage, which is why it’s more dangerous for you.
Haha, that reminds me of something. My dad used to be a cop and he diffused more than one situation with just a baton and mostly it was the people backing down from him. Hehe, he is a big fellow though so that helps too
REPLY: You better be dang sure of yourself to dangle a weapon. If you reveal your weapon, they may have a chance to escalate - by pulling a more dangerous weapon. I do not suggest this strategy in a dangerous multiple attacker scenario. It MIGHT work, and I’ve psyched people out of fighting before, but with the woman present, the risk is too high.
For the record, I am almost always armed. Even when wearing a suit and tie at a business presentation I will have at least two knives and other ‘things’. If you had lived were I lived, you would feel comfortable this way too. For me, kung fu is not a hobby, but a way of life.
But please, do not carry without intelligent training.
Luckily, it wasn’t in an altercation. I bought some for my mom and was testing it out. after I sprayed it, the wind decided to pick up, and blew it right back into my face.