Opinions please! What range do you think most fights end up happening in?? I dont care if you are speaking from pure opinion, experience, watching UFC, whatever…are you going to end up toe to toe…only long punching range, or on the ground..or what?
-Golden Arms-
I think most fights end up at grappling range (weather standing or on the ground), with a noteable exception for the “sand there and hit one another till your done with it” type fights.
This I think is the result that one person will throw themselves at the other (so the hitting stops? Out of frustration?) and preventing someone from closing is quite difficult. Also, grabbing seems to be quite instinctual when fighting out of anger.
Whichever range the more talented fighter chooses.
How many Tyson fights go to the ground?
How many Gracie fights stay upright?
The more important question is, do you train hard enough to maintain control?
Excellent, this is exactly the kind of input I have been looking for! Keep em coming! Also, do you feel this is a major difference in a real confrontation vs. say a NHB or Tournament fight of ANY type, since in some of those circumstances, the people 2 may be reluctant to close the range. I like the part about the more talented person choosing the range as well…
I would have to agree with Censored
However, it isn’t nessecarily the more talented fighter. Luck and environment play a role in it as well. What if it is icy out? There is a good chance you will end up on the ground, if for no other reason then you might have slipped. What if you are on gravel? You will want to do everything possible to make sure you stay off the ground. Also you would probably not want to throw too many kicks due to gravel being loose and creating a more difficult base to keep your feet firm on. And the list of what if’s goes on. I recommend training for all ranges, but “specialice” in one or 2 specific ranges. For example I train very hard for the close range (elbow, headbutt, knee range). I also train fairly hard, but not quite as hard, for punching range. After that, everything else gets the same attention
Just my thoughts
Whichever range the more talented fighter chooses.
How many Tyson fights go to the ground?
Almost every one I have seen has gone to grappling range at some point. For example, when Mike bit off his opponent’s ear. The don’t go to the ground because neither party desires to do so. It is a well known and oft used boxisng strategy to close to grappling range to stop an onslaught. This tactic is not restricted to the more talented of the two competitors.
I also spent many years as a stick-jock in the SCA. I was one of the few people in my region who had been taught to employ a greatsword well at close range. Something I noticed in my own fights and in the fights of others was what happened with range. They guy with the long weapon got the first shot. If it did not connect, he spent the rest of the (usually short) fight running backwards. Did you ever notice how no track records are held by people who run backwards? This is because you can run forwards faster than you can run backwards.
So, what are the two ways to maintain range? Movement is one, but as I have just pointed out, unless you are looking over your shoulder with your back turned, your opponent can close faster than you can retreat. The other is to physically grab them and force your distance there; in that instance, you are grappling.
Once that contact has been established, choosing within the grappling ranges may well be the pervew of the more talented individual; and while I think the person wanting to go to the ground has an innate advantage over the person wanting to remain upright (gravity), that does not mean that advantage cannot be countered with another (size, skill, luck, etc).
CLINCHING range…for example hockey fights…most fights are unskilled…when u put someone skilled( like most martial artist ) it certainly changes the range. I have seen a skilled boxer/tkd KO a punk ass in 10 seconds with combinations…the punk ass couldn’t get into range to grab and punch. I have seen bouncers and police officer effective control and grapple there opponents down. However fights between unskilled peeps are usually in the clinch range…the punch and grab at the same time.
Police, close at will.
Prison inmates, close at will.
Bouncers, close at will.
Baseball Players, close at will.
Boxers, close at will.
Wrestlers, close at will.
NHB fighters, close at will.
Same to every fight I have seen in the streets.
I am aware of no profession, no sport, no “street fight” were two un-armed opponents fight and one cannot choose to force “clinching range”. The only instances I have even heard of, were of boxers or (more often) kickers who connected and dazed their opponent with blow one. Otherwise, unless both parties want to stay out, they closed. The “other guy” may have been thrown back off, but if he wanted to close, he did.
Name one event where one party wanted to close, and was unable to catch the other party for over 1 second.
Jerry…I tried to close on this girl once but her speed was too quick as she dash away from me on da dance floor…sniff..sniff…I have never felt so much pain from da beating…
Hey Jerry…Vivat!
I trade bruises with some of the guys from Ansteorra (OK,TX). We have the famous William the Bear here, a great sword guy who’s 6’7" and about 350 lbs. He’s also a career martial artist and is quick and nimble for such a huge guy. I would say he’s almost better at close range with that weapon than he is at long range. The thing becomes more versatile.
I would have to more or less agree about clinching range being universal to pretty much every real street fight I’ve ever seen. The exceptions, as have been noted, are those instances where a clean jab, cross, or knee/leg kick connected at the outset of the fight.
Hey Chris, sorry to have been so quiet lately, been drawn six-ways from sunday. I need to come out there sometime. Who does he do sword work with?
Clinching
I believe most fights end up in the clinch. This is just a theory, but most people don’t want to get hit, right? Of course, so between unskilled and skilled combatant the natural inclination is to restrain the opponents limbs. Grab on and hold on tight! The difference between the unskilled and skilled combatants is that the skilled combatant know intellectually and instinctively how to proceed from there, while the unskilled does not.
Some martial art accept the clinch wholeheartedly (for example BJJ), while others to fit from half acceptence (Aikido) to full rejection. As in 7* Praying Mantis, we don’t wholely accept the clinch, thinking to control the limbs of the opponent throught various means while striking. Only as a secondary response would we go to grappling.
I think its almost impossible to avoid the clinch.
real fighting range
Jerry,
I agree- most of the fights I’ve seen or been in did, at some point, end up in grappling range. I think this has a lot to do with the fact that we watch and participate in a lot of sports such as boxing (tieing up, or clinching), wrestling, hockey, and of course football and baseball (which tend to end their fights in a massive heap). And of course, the guy taking a beating may see a grappling match as a good alternative. But it does not have to end up on the ground or as a push, pull, and throwing contest. Side-stepping is extremely effective if he comes at you hard. Also, if you are fluent in the use of your in close weaponry (natural or other) and you can get inside his guard, you can devastate him. If he does grab you, there are a multitude of very effective counters, many of which bring it back to a striking contest (if they don’t end it outright). But I have to admit that it is a good idea to have some locking, throwing, and ground fighting in your repetoir.
Also, do you feel this is a major difference in a real confrontation vs. say a NHB or Tournament fight of ANY type, since in some of those circumstances, the people 2 may be reluctant to close the range
I think when people pay to see a fight, they pay to see a fight. Not a rout. Unskilled fighters don’t make it into the ring fights, but they do comprise the majority of street fights.
How many of YOUR fights will go to the ground? Choose a percentage and train accordingly.
I see you are in Seattle. Where do you train?
Hey Jerry,
Sorry for the delay; I’ve had digital laryngitis. William the Bear trains with the Wiesenfeuer barony in OKC. He hosts the training at his house.
[Censored],
Are you the same guy who was promoting that Chung Moo Do crap about Baguazhang’s origins on the internal arts forum?
Some of my fights WILL go to the ground, I am comfortable with that, but I definately prefer to stay standing or get back on to my feet if I have my way. How about you…do you work your stances, sprawling, takedowns, clears and breaks, etc enough that you can confidently get in to it with someone that wants to go to the ground, and still stay standing or make them sorry that they got close to you in the first place? (general question)
Are you the same guy who was promoting that Chung Moo Do crap about Baguazhang’s origins on the internal arts forum?
You guys are too easy.
Depends
Depends on who you are facing and how many…also depends on whether or not they will be using a weapon.
Hand to hand fight? Usually starts stand up and just outside of arm’s length…words are exchanged, sometimes more insults, but if you want them to initiate, give them an opening…they take half step in or attempt kick to groin area (most of time) or dominate hand punch to head.
From then on, it depends on how you fight and some luck (terrain), be ready, you could end up on ground.
My style? I close in and finish the fight unless I’m assessing the crowd and watching my own back at the moment, then I keep him outside of kick range until he presents me an opening or I create an opening. Then I finish.
Why do you ask? Each person is different…also depends on your weight and your personality. If you’re confident, then you can close in. If you’re too excited then you could rush in then retreat. Also depends on your training…is it hit and run, take the guy down, have you practiced follow-up techniques? Is your’s a hitting style? grappling style, etc..?
I think most fights end up in the grappling/short range strikes range. They usually go to the ground when 1 guy has taken control and wants to finish it.
I’m surprised to hear Chung Moo Doe and or Chung Moo Quan mentioned on this thread. As a matter of fact, I was surprised to hear those schools are still open. In some areas they were closed down due to brain washing tactics, income tax fruad, and plain old lying to students about powers of a particular man who’s name I will not mention. I believe CBS broke a story on the group over 10 years ago.
As for fighting ranges, I think one should be pretty skilled in all four (kicking, hand striking, clinching/trapping, and ground grappling). Why? Because you don’t know what the hell is going to happen in a fight. NHB is not a real street fight, but the closest tournament we could have to the real thing. It is the most realistic way a martial artists can test his/her skill. Street fights are in most situations assaults, sucker punches, ambushes, and a bunch of guys ganging up on one.
MA fanatic