question to Lam's Hung Gar linerage

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Hi fellow brothers,

I was reading the bio of master Chan Hong Chun and Master Chiu Kau on this web site www.hungga.net There was something in the footnotes of bio that i found confusing. It said that the two master mentioned were not disciples of Master Lam Sai Wing but rather were disciples of Lam Jo.
I always thought they were sihings to sifu lam jo.
Since I am of the Tang Fong linerage, and in the process of doing research in our system.
Any help of this matter is greatly apprciated

peace

[This message has been edited by DF (edited 09-13-2000).]

2

I believe that some of Wing Lam’s students responded to this a few months ago on the forum, saying that this was another newspaper statement from Lam Jo which was later retracted.

If Chan Hon Chung and Chiu Kao were still alive, I don’t think Lam Jo would be so careless with his words. After all, Chan Hon Chung was the head instructor at Lam Sai Wing’s school, and isn’t the modern day successor to Lam Sai Wing’s school a man named Leung Gum Gong?

3

curiouser and curiouser…

4

Hi Paul,

long time, I didnt know there was a respond to this already. Since I was away a couple of months ago. It is just that i recently read it in the web sited mentioned. I just thought it was odd thats why i am seeking for assistance here.

peace

5

This is all very simple.

When Lam Sai Wing passed away, the school went to his nephew Lum Jo. In fact, Lum Jo had been running the school (one in HK island and one in Kowloon) for sometime before LSW’s death since Lam Sai Wing went back to Guangzhou to live his final years. (Chiu Kao went with him to Guangzhou during that time)

Since Lum Jo was young, he wanted to establish himself and as the Sifu of the school, he felt that Lam Sai Wing’s students were his students and took an ad in the paper stating so.

Chan Hon Chung and Chiu Kao studied directly with Lam Sai Wing.

Who is Leung Gum Gong and what is relation with LSW? Why would he be considered the successor? Most Hung Gar sifu’s in Hong Kong I talked to recognize Lum Jo.

6

thk all for the responds.

However, I still found it strange.
Hasayfu, are you saying that Lam jo took out an ad in the newspaper after Lam Sai wing passed and claimed Chui and Chan as his students.
Sorry , i sound ignorant, but this seem to go against every protocol and etiquette that i was taught.
No disrepect intended.

Anyway, so it is confirmed than chui and Chan were disciples of grandmaster Lam sai Wing.

Thank you for all those that respond.

7

Hello, I’m the webmaster of Hungga United.
The reason that both stories/possibilities are on the site is just that different stories are told.
Chiu Kao and Chan Hon Chung are generally believed to be students of Lam Sai Wing, and I have seen pics of both with LSW (proving this).
However Lam Jou claims they are his students.
And this is accepted in the lineages under him. The first time I read Lam Jou being (claiming to be) their sifu was an article in Inside Kung Fu a few years ago. You can also find this claim on the internet site of Lam Chun Fai.
I have also heard that there’s a large lineage displayed in Lam Jou’s school (now Lam Chun FAi’s school). According to this lineage, Chiu Kao and Chan Hon Chung (as well as a lot of others) are students of Lam Jou and (making it more confusing) that Tang Fung was a student of Lam SAi Wing.

Why these claims are made, I do not now exactly. But remember it might just be a difference in perspective. Chiu kao and Chan Hon Chung might have learned a lot from Lam Jou, because he was the assistent of Lam Sai Wing. (Note: both started training under Lam SAi Wing when Lam Jou was ca. 20 years old and next to his own school also helped/taught at Lam Sai Wing’s school).
Chiu Kao and han Hon Chung will of course see Lam Sai Wing as their Sifu. Lam Jou will however think they learned a lot from him, so therefore he now claims to have been their teacher.

If anyone has more question about this, feel free to contact me by using the discussion forum on Hungga United (www.hungga.net)

8

I don’t think Lam Jo is being very respectful to anyone by claiming that he is the teacher, or even the sihing to great masters like Chiu Kao and Chan Hon Chung. Who’s next to be his student, Wong Lee, Mok Gwai Lan, etc?

As for Lam Sai Wing and Tang Fung, they were learning brothers. Even if one is more senior or more skilled, they wouldn’t go around bragging about who taugh who, or who is better.

You can look at the whole situation from this perspective; you are the top student under your sifu. He may have a son or daughter who has been at his school for years before you, but that doesnt make the child your teacher, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that the child is any good.

Think of it this way, who was more skillful, who was the head instructor under Lam Sai Wing, which students were given Lam Sai Wing’s blessing to open up their own schools and medical practices?

9

Paul,
if you have a look at Lam Chun FAi’s website, you can see that Wong Lee is also said to be Lam Jou’s student.

I agree it’s not very respectfull. Now all these persons are dead, the claims are spread openly.

But then again. Maybe Lam Jou thinks they were not respectful to him.

E.g. - as you (Paul) will know - there are big differences of perspective in my lineage too.
A student of the appointed successor of my Sigung claims that his sifu is the only successor, and that the other students may not say they learned from Sigung X. Furthermore he claims that he’s the sifu of my sifu, since he helped setting up the school and my sifu refreshed his memeory under this person. I learned Hungga however way before that period and have seen pictures of my sifu with Sigung X (training/teaching).
He claims my sifu isn’t very respectfull, my sifu says he’s not. So who’s right?
We just have to accept that people will see things in a way that suits them best, and that there’s no ultimate truth. So there will always be different stories/different perspectives.

10

Well, there will always be different sides to every story, and people will always have “their” version of things. One thing you have to realize is, you can fool some people, but you can’t fool yourself. A lie will always be uncoverred eventually.

For situations like these, the proof is in the quality of the martial artist and his students. Just look and compare, you will see. Also, when all of these masters were alive, who were the “leaders”? Who did everyone in the martial arts community look up to and respect?

11

I know that I am about open a can of worms but…

In this particular post no one has produced any evidence of proof of Chu Chi Ling’s linerage. Nor has anyone prduced proof otherwise. I am speaking of solid DOCUMENTATION in writing. Pictures really do not prove much. Anyone can stand next to a master and take a shot togather. Alll this bickering back and forth are arguements are old ones that DO NOT INVOlVE US! Should Chu Chi Ling dispute Lam Jo’s claim then perhaps he should have the mind to visit Lam Jo personally and speak out it. Let the two of them sort it out man to man. This is an issue that has been around for a long time before any of us started training and will be along well after.

We as martial artists should concentrate on our given arts and not delve into things which are none of our concern. Practice hard with proper intention and work on being as good as you can at your given style. That is what make ones Kung Fu strong. The rest if you forgive my cander is mental masterbation.

Just my two cents.

Brian_CA
San Francisco, CA

12

I’ll agree with Brian that the important stuff is your kung fu and that we as the Hung Gar community should support and promote each other not take little stabs to prop up one line over the others.

Again, this is pretty simple but everyone is making much more out of it. I’ll tell you what I think happened based on different accounts and let you know where I get my information. I am a student of Wing Lam so my lineage comes from both Chiu Wai and Lum Jo. I have visited both my Si-gungs several times and spoken and trained with them.

Chiu Wai - When Lum Jo took over Lam Sai Wing’s school, he took out ad and called all the current students of LSW, his own. [my note: This is not as disrespectful as it sounds since he was now the “head of household.” and it’s common in Chinese heirarchy] Of course his Si-Hing’s didn’t agree since LSW never did the official passing of the line ceromony. [my note: Lum Jo did this while they were all alive and kicking so it’s not a case of waiting till they couldn’t defend themselves]

At least Chiu Kao confronted Lum Jo about this and they disagreed at first but eventually Lum Jo agreed that he was rash. Chiu Wai and Lum Jo are currently on good terms.

Lum Jo - I’ve never asked Lum Jo if he considers Chiu Kao his student but I have some observations while there. They have a book published on the anniversary of LSW’s birthday with a list of LSW’s students and Chiu Kao is listed as one of them. I think this was published in 1972 but I’m not sure.

I’ve never seen a lineage chart on the wall of Lum Jo’s school. Though you will see my picture on the wall and in the albums

When I was at Lum Jo’s school last week, I showed Lam Chun Shing (Lum Jo’s youngest son) a printout of his section on the Lam Chun Fai site and he or Si-Gung had never seen it before. So it’s safe to say that though the site is officially affiliated with Lam Chun Fai, it doesn’t mean that they have proof read it or sanctioned everthing on it. Remember, it’s created out of Southern California. I also know that Lam Chun Shing does not speak or read english but I’m not sure about LCF.

So why do I take time to explain this in detail? To show that there is no sinister plot to bring one line down or prop one line up.

BUT even if there was, who cares! If Chiu Kao says he learned from LSW and you are his lineage, either believe him or change your affiliation.

If Lum Jo wants to say the Chiu Line is under his, then it’s a matter for the Chiu’s to handle and we should believe what our Sifu tells us.

WE as an internet community need to share our lines perspective but should also be respectful of others perspectives. Both Chiu and Lum lines have great Hung Gar. There’s a lot to be learned from both. We sometimes lose what’s really important.

13

Take a look at Lam, Chun-Fai’s site for more controversy…

 The site, <a href="http://www.hungkuen.com,">http://www.hungkuen.com,</a> has just been updated and lo and behold! A letter from the master's son stating that Chiu Kao and his wife ARE students of Lum, Jo with the photos as Lum's evidence. Interesting that the letter is in response to Chiu, Chi-Ling's lineage.

  To Hay Say Fu, did you learn anything back in HK in Lum's and Chiu's and did you notice the difference in style and execution?
14

Hi Molum_jr,

Yes, I worked on several sets with both Si-Gungs. You can clearly see the differences as well as the similarities. I can also see how my Sifu is a mix of his two Sifus.

In General, Lum Jo is much tighter and close in where Chiu Wai is a little more exended. My Si-Sook (who also studied both lines) says it’s a reflection of their personalities.

I’ll say one thing. The stuff Chiu Chi Ling does in public is not what the Chiu’s teach. Though I have never learned from Chiu Chi Ling, I’ve seen him demo privately and it’s much closer to his brother then the stuff he puts on video.

15

The fued lives on

With Molum_jr’s link, it got me curious why Lam Chun Fai would write such a letter.

Check out http://home.earthlink.net/~chiuchiling/history.html

This is relatively new because I notice his site has more videos and I don’t remember reading this the last time I was there. This story is similar to what Chiu Wai told me but without the Lum Jo slander. It’s a shame that CCL had to include it.

I still stand by my statement. Who Cares! Believe what you like. Both lines (as other hung gar lines) have a lot to offer.

16

Not taking sides, just offerring what I’ve been taught.

All of Lam Sai Wing’s students and grandstudents that I’ve talked to have no doubt that Chiu Kao is the student of Lam Sai Wing.

I’ve got nothing to gain or lose from this arguement, but I was told that Chiu Kao started learning under Lam Sai Wing. Lam was already in his old age, so Chiu Kao finished his training under his sihings. His si-hings wont claim him as their student, because he is their si-dai. Plus, his si-hings will already have their own good reputations, no need to have someone else build it for them.

Also, didn’t someone already mention that the “lam chun fai” website isn’t run by Lam Chun Fai? It could be some insecure student trying to build a reputation for his masters. I don’t think the Lam’s would try and talk like that about the Chius. Maybe they could say that to Chiu Chi Ling, but I doubt people would talk bad about Chiu Kao or Chiu Wei.

Just my 2 cents worth

17

wing lam

Did you guys konw that wing lam learned some hung gar from YC Wong? And did wing ever give credit to YC? NOPE, wow talk about respect.

18

  1. To Hay Say Fu: I dropped by Eastwinds bookstore, SF and talked with one of the cashiers about Chiu, Chi-Ling videos and out of all the Hung Gar tapes that they sell, Chiu’s received the most compliants concerning content. It seems that the tapes are more concerned w/advertising than content.

  2. To Word: Well…it was probably expected that you rehash some old grips. The fact is that WL practised both in Wong, Jack-Man and YC Wong’s respected kwoons when he came to the USA. It should be noted that the older generation of YC Wong students learnt Wu Dip Cheong (Butterfly Palm - a Chiu Kao form that is not taught by the Lum Jo school) from WL. Later on, they continued to learn from wushu video tapes from China (Saber form especially) and a little bit from William Fong (Disciple of Tai Chi Praying Mantis and Wong, Fei-Hung’s wife in HK).

19

Y.C. Wong

Dear Molum_JR.

Of which “Older generation” Y.C. Wong Students exactly are you referring to? I have been a student of Y.C. Wong for the last 7 years and I have never heard any truth to what you say. To my knowledge none of My Si-hings have gotten any forms from the people you mentioned. I can ask them if you wish. Our saber form comes from the Pek Kwa system not a wushu video. Sifu learned it in Hong Kong from grandmaster Kun Duk Hoi.

To Paul:

Of which exact students and Grandstudents of Lam Sai Wing’s do you speak of? Also who exactly told you this?

I’ve got nothing to gain or lose from this arguement, but I was told that Chiu Kao started learning under Lam Sai Wing. Lam was already in his old age, so Chiu Kao finished his training under his sihings. His si-hings wont claim him as their student, because he is their si-dai. Plus, his si-hings will already have their own good reputations, no need to have someone else build it for them. I would like to verify your statement with those people.

Once again I repeat my statement. This matter is none of our Concern! It is a matter that is strictly between the Lam family and the Chui Family. You all should put this energy into your training and stay out of other people’s business.

Brian_CA
San Francisco, CA

20

brian,

for one who says we should keep out of this, of which i 100% totally agree with your statment, and of which after this one i will not post on this matter again, you seem to be continuing the issues by asking others questions.

you yourself stated in your first posting of this matter, “what documented proof does chi ling have of his families lineage”, then you go on to tell others that they should mind there own business.

you seem to be stopping the fight with one hand and then hitting with the other.

maybe you should read your own words, before telling others to listen to your voice.

mo duk my friend mo duk

regards