HUNG GAR - historic clarification

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Hi

There is an old saying the Chinese Kung Fu World. “Once you bai si to your sifu, Your sifu is your father for life” Basically what this mean is once you are accpted into a kung fu family, you are bounded by duties to honor and to preserve the style . You must demonstrate good character, uphold the traditions of the school ,
respect your olders and know your place within the family.

Lam Jo had failed to do any of these. He had shamed the hung gar family by misrepresented himself, claimed credits that were not his.

He falsely claimed Chiu Kow,Chan Hong Chung, Wong Lee and Ho Si Kit as his own students and yet unable to provide proofs for such claims. No sifu and student picture was taken or any picture where lam Jo was instructing any of the above named sifus. To make matter worse, Lam Jo went on to enlist Chiu Kow’s student Ng Shiu Hong as his own as well.

This type of behavior from Lam Jo is a disgrace to all martial artists! Lam Jo had purposely twisted and misleaded the whole Hung Gar family
and people of the martial world. Lam Jo’s character brought shams to the great history and the high moral standing of the hung gar family.
Let all of us see through the clever engineered conspiracy by Lam Jo. He had used the great name of Hung Gar for his personal gains.

LET ALL OF US NOT FORGET THIS SHAMEFULL PAGE OF OUR HISTORY BROUGHT ON BY LAM JO. SO IT AND
NOT TO ALLOW IT TO REPEAT AGAIN!!!

2

Martin

Dear Martin,

This subject has been a topic that has been debated over and over again. It has been agreed by most sides involved that we will respect each other and NOT enforce our opinions upon each other.

By drudging this up you show bad form. It simply makes you look petty and foolish. I am certain that your sifu would not want you to disrespect to peace that has been made. After all are you not his representative in Europe?

Leave this subject behind and go one with you life. Teach good kung fu and propogate the art for future generations.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

3

???

4

It seems that every style has their own inner politics. Hung-Ga has for the most part has steered clear of such back-biting. This situation has been discussed and discussed. The involved parties have been contacted. End it. We are a diverse family. There are Tang-Fung branches, Lam Sai-Wing branches and village Hung Kuen. We all see the similarities and appreciate the differences in our respective schools. The one thing we agree on is that we are all brothers. Hung-Ga is known for its morality, integrity and ethics. Let’s keep it that way.
Question: How many Hung Ga practitioners does it take to put in a lightbulb?
Answer: Four. One to put it in, and three to say, “That’s nice, we do it a little different.”
Peace

5

Hello Brian,

You stated: This subject has been a topic that has been debated over and over again. It has been agreed by most sides involved that we will respect each other and NOT enforce our opinions upon each other.

What wonders me is that there are still some Hung Gar sites which have “official statements”, “historical lineage”, “special letters”, etc. When there is a kind of truce why not throw these items out of these websites?

Klaas

aka

South Paw

6

re: official statements

Hi Klaas,

There was an official statement made on this website I believe a few months ago.  In addition it was also on <a href="http://www.hungkuen.org.">www.hungkuen.org.</a>  Since then most the parties involved have agreed to a truce.

Here is the statement made. I hope it clarifies things a bit. Please keep in mind that it involves the Lam family and Frank Yee’s branch.

An Important Announcement for All Hung Gar Practitioners
PREAMBLE
In recent months, a debate among the different Hung Gar lineages concerning historic issues has distracted many of us. We live in a free society and constructive debates are part of the democratic process in which issues are discussed and resolved. This debate, however, has generated strong feelings, which are threatening to damage the unity of the Hung Gar family as a whole.

At a closed door meeting, Frank Yee, Grandmaster of the Tang Fong/Yuen Ling Lineage, and Lam Chun Fai, Grandmaster of the Lam Cho Lineage, agreed to issue this joint statement. In this joint statement, the Grandmasters call upon all members of their lineages to act in accordance with their decision, so as to set an example for all. The Grandmasters’ goal is to maintain harmony within the Hung Gar family and to promote the Hung system.

STATEMENT

Each Hung Gar lineage has its own teachings and history.
The Lam Cho Lineage and Tang Fong Lineage agree that while their respective histories may not coincide in some areas, neither family wishes to impose its teachings or history on the other.
We advise all members of the martial arts community to follow the teachings and history of their own lineage.
We see no purpose in one lineage trying to discredit the teachings or history of another lineage. In the end, the propagation of our great art should be our only goal.
Accordingly, we call upon members of our respective lineages to rise above any further such disputes, and acknowledge that other lineages have their own teachings and histories. We ask that all members of our respective lineages cease public debate of the accuracy of the teachings and histories of other lineages.

CONCLUSION
Constructive debate is a good thing as long as the goal is to enrich our great system. We understand that no one is ever afraid to disagree and to debate any issue. At the end of the day, however, we must never forget that the different lineages within the Hung Gar family should come together and unite as one. All Hung Gar lineages trace their roots back to Wong Fei Hung, Wong Kei Ying, and Hung Hay Goon. This should be sufficient common ground for all of us in the Hung Gar family.

April. 17, 2001

May we all finally go back to talking about propogating the art of Hung gar in peace and brotherhood.

Sincerely,

Brian
San Francisco, CA

7

Martin

Dear Martin,
Is better to concentrate on your Kung Fu and in your Hung Gar family.
If you or your sifu have any disagree with the Lam family, that is not reason you to use in your believes names of other sifu. Leave them to speak for their self.

Except if you didn’t like the peace and the brother ship that happens in the last few months, in the world Hung Kar family. The joint statement of Grandmaster Lam Chun Fai and Grandmaster Frank Yee is clear and is can easily seen by anyone who really loves the promotion and practice of our beautiful art.
When you can explain how sifu Chiu Kau and his wife Siu Yin stayed between Great Grandmaster Lam Cho students, then we can discuss.

Please don’t push too much the things.

To South Paw:
I believe (in person), when sifu Chiu Chi Ling relieve from his Website his improper comments about Great Grandmaster Lam Cho; then and the Lam family and its senior students will relieve their responds. Because their statements and letters are only responds to an improper behavior

To Brian_CA:
Nice post and site. I hope to see you soon.

Sifu Costas Alexopoulos
First disciple of sifu Kostas Tsoligas
General Secretary of E.S.L.P.H.K.F

8

Hello Brian & Costas,

I read this statement as a kind of truce between the lineages of Tang Fung and Lam Cho, although advise is given to all Hung Gar practitioners how to act and behave.

I also know from Chiu Chi Ling Sifu that when he was in Hong Kong last year he again and again tried to reach Lam Chun Fai to settle this disagreement.

Concerning the “official statements”, “historical lineages”, “special letters”, etc. that are still one the different websites, I hope in time these will dissapear.

Klaas

aka

South Paw

9

it is a great thing to see, the loyalty of all students to their sifu, for this each one here should be applauded.

the words each one of you has used to support their particular sifu, is without question, but does two wrongs make a right.

i too have wondered, since the statment has come out, regarding an understanding between lineages, why the words are still up on just about every site on hung gar.

how can sites say things like, " hung gar is one big family" when they are still being left to be read by anyone and everyone.

what is the importance of such words that cause such distress, surely there must be one that can make a start by taking these old, tired statements off their sites.

i have heard often through this disappointing situation, that we should all worry more about training than bring up such issues, i again must say if this is so, is it therefore for personal reasons these documents are still left up??

is the individual more important than the art???

without question of re-dress, what yee chi wai and lam chun fai have done is a true and correct direction all hung gar players need to take.

on questions of who taught who and can you prove it, is childish to say the least, each answer will only produce another question, and the endless rhetoric will surely follow.

this has been going on since the early 50’s, maybe it is time for the younger ones to bring all things to an end, for the sake of the art - hung gar.

it is enough that elders use unwise words to be read and seen in public, but again is it a presedence that pupils should also use strong words??

enough is enough, actions speak louder than words, let those who know better act.

10

The truth!!

Dear Hung Gar Friends

You are right,if you want to be one Hung Gar Family and also if you dont like to fight against each other, and it is also the meaning to respect everyone who lives Hung Gar Kung Fu. All theese things are not the matter of the Hung Gar History Clarification. The matter is either not that there are two different opinons about the history of Hung Gar, the matter is that one family tells the truth and one family is lieing and causes troubles in this way. I ask you: "Mustnt it be like that; A Hung Gar student always tells the
truth? And can stand with good conscience behind everything he does. And if
he was wrong he can say he was wrong and apologize to this one he did
wrong?" I short like to remind you of the ethical and moral rules which comes
from Wong Fei Hung who is in the lineage of us.
I like to explain you (for all they couldnt recognize it until now) that the fact is: Lam family has until today not one real proof for what they are claiming. Chiu family however can proof everything they are saying and does it. Lets begin arround 50 years ago, when this story started first time. At that time Lam Jo has written the Lam Sai Wing Memory Book and (as you know) he has written inside of this book Chiu Kau, Siu Ying and Chan Hon Chung are students of himself. At that time Grandmaster Chiu Kau corrected this claim in the newspapers. I ask you:" If I write a book and I mention you in there, but what I write about you is wrong, what can you do else than correct it in public? Can I write in this book what I like to write about you and let it print and sale, cant I? Are the printed and saled books after you correction changed? Is 50
years later something else written in this book (which is since 50 years the
same)?
Thats what happend in ancient times. Sifu Chiu Chi Ling, (the next Generation after the correction of the mistake in the Lam Sai Wing Book) had normal contact with the Lam family, like with other Hung Gar people also and respected them until they began again to telling the old lies. Dont you think for us nowaday is important to clarify the Hung Gar history,
so that in future for everyone is more than clear, what the truth is?
If we don`t clear it up now this lie will always come up again and will
always divorce the Hung Gar family.
Because we want one family, because we want peace and friendship, because we
want the good Hung Gar ethic, thats why its time for a clarification that
will make the future clear.

  1. Lam Chun Fai claims:“Chiu Kao and Siu Ying (Chiu Chi Lings parents)were not Lam Sai Wings diciples. They never studied or trained with Lam Sai
    Wing.”
    If you look at Sifu Chiu Chi Lings Website you will see the typical Student and Master picture, with Greatgrandmaster Lam sai Wing sitting and Grandmaster Chiu Kau standing behind, on it. This kind of picture is only made by Sifu and his student, it shows in a very traditional way how the relation is. And you must think theese days only a few people had a camera, so you had to go to a studio to let the photograph make a picture. "Would a Sifu do this with someone he doesnt
    really know?"
    Lam family has until now no master-student picture of Lam sai Wing and Lam Jo and it
    doesn`t exist apparently as well no master-student picture of Lam Jo and Grandmaster Chiu Kau, which would
    exist if Grandmaster Chiu Kau would have been a student of Lam Jo.
    As you know also the Lam family does this traditional master-student picture as you can see there exist master-student pictures from Lam Jo and Lam Chun Fai, from Lam Jo and Y.C. Wong and many others.

  2. Lam Chun Fai say Sifu Chiu Chi Ling creates a new lineage and that the true is
    what Lam Jo sais. Why he has not one proof for the truth of Lam Jo`s claims
    (exept a book which Lam Jo has written by himself and was corrected by Chiu
    Kau)

3.Sifu Chiu Chi Ling must not elevate his position. He is what he is, if Lam
family like it or not. It was Sifu Chiu Chi Lings father (Grandmaster Chiu Kau) who made the 1st place over whole China, and Sifu Chiu Chi Ling is filmstar, a good doctor, teacher of special forces and so on. So if someone like to elevate his position at another wouldnt it be the less known person who elevate himself at the famous person?

4.Because of the supposed prooving group-pictures of Lam family. Do you
remember the Tournament 1st Hung Gar Worldchampionship in Karlsruhe
(Germany) 2000? We have of this event pictures, on which all the
participants are on it. All the different masters are sitting, the rest is
standing around. I ask you:“who is now the Sifu of all theese people and are
all theese people now student of thisone who sits in the middle?”
You can see how nonsens such a try of a proof is!
And you know, at every event people make such group-pictures.
At theese group-pictures of cause the students of Greatgrandmaster Lam Sai Wing are there
with a lot of other Kung Fu brothers and sisters.

5.Talking about the uniforms. Lam Chun Fai claims, Grandmaster Chiu Kau is Lam Jos student, because he wears the Lams students uniform.
I ask you:“If I wear a shirt from adidas now adidas is my Sifu, and if I
change the shirt which one with Hugo Boss Logo on it, am I than a student of
Hugo Boss?” I think also here you can see what a nonsens this is.

6.As Klaas Padberg has written; Lam family sais they like to end the debate of this subject.
Why I ask you many of their students and the Lam family themselfes has the "official statement"and the
“historical lineage” still on their websites?

The situation now is: Lam family has to bring immetiately real proofs of what they are claiming, otherways there is no other possibility for them not to loose the face than to apologize to all martial artists and Sifu Chiu Chi Ling and his mother Grandmaster Siu Ying. This is the right way! Can you do this, Lam family?

Martin Sewer, Switzerland

[This message was edited by MS on 07-02-01 at 08:09 AM.]

11

Rumour

It is rumoured that Chiu Chi Ling Sifu will bring his case up to the Hong Kong Chinese Martial Arts Association. Don’t know what the outcome will be. Lam Chun Fai Sifu is a notable member of this association.

There was a time that the late Chan Hong Chun was president of the HKCMAA. Those days, when also Chiu Kao was still alive, there would not be such a discussion.

Ling

12

What is real?

I think the important point is that history must be clarified. This is not about arguments, agreements or comprimises. This is about facts, history and true stories that happened. Saying “For the sake of Hung Ga unity, history should be …” is nonsense. It is the same as saying “For the happiness of the Jews such that they can forget the ugly past, the history of World War 2 should be …”

What is the truth about Chan Hong Chung, Chiu Kau, Mg Shui Hong, etc.? Each of us and our future generations deserve the rights to know these facts, these straight, untwistable, cold and concrete facts.

It is time for people to tell the real story and put up real and solid proofs to back up what they say

13

re: You still don’t get it

It is clear that you do not respect the peace that has been brought about. Could you please reread the Official statement made by the two families and respect that most have agreed not dig up old agruements that have nothing to do with us. It does nothing but promote bad blood between the community and shows low class. If you and your sifu wish to respect this truce, the you will recieve respect back from the entire community. You reap what you sow.

I would hate to think that one side of the community would be so petty that it did not have forgiveness and humility to move on. Just let it go. No one is out to “get you”. Let the elder work this out and let us move on to the future.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

14

clarify statement

brian i find your words very interesting, maybe you can clarify something for me.

there is no doubt what yee chi wai sifu and lam chun fai sifu have done, again i say this is without reproach, however i see only two names on the last statement, where originally there were more on the joint statement.

so clarify for me brian, when it says “families” is it talking of two families, those mentioned on the statement or does it include those names that where on the joint statement???

if it is only the two families mentioned, does this mean, that all other lineages come under only two families, the lams being one with there heritage and the tang fong family with there heritage.

what if those under lam family still dispute this idea, which from the above is purely the case, is it just because one comes from a certain lineage they can say what they want, and all must “kow tow” to the their words???

this here i see as one of the issues, if it includes all the families then why arn’t their names on it also??

i find it always interesting regarding this issue, that when the lam family speaks, it is without reproach, yet when another member of a family speaks, they are causing trouble or are not respecting the “peace”.

all very interesting, yet also all one sided, don’t you think???

regarding “low class”, isn’t this ones perspective?? on this whole situation, you could call every word that has been used from both sides, “low class”, or does it only make it one side, depending on where you sit??

regarding my question to you, can you please answer? with the words you have used, you seem to be close to the situation, otherwise why would you speak?? oh and please don’t ask me to speak to anyone else, it is your words i am addressing, no one elses

[This message was edited by bean curd on 07-03-01 at 02:55 AM.]

15

beancurd

Hi Bean curd,

I think you may be reading too deep into my post. In my original post, I do mention that most people involved have made a general truce. I do not mean to elude that all Hung gar is from both these families only. I am not sure why everyones name is not on that statement. However, the general idea is good overall. Why would we want to continue to bicker as a community?

I posted my comments mostly in frustration. This kind fingerpointing does nothing constructive for the style. It only divides us. This issue is over 50 years old. We should concentrate on our practice and the propogating the art for future generations. Do you believe that this subject should be discussed between us? Do you not agree that it is not our place to speak of things that have nothing to do with us? Do you not think that the the truce is good for the entire community?

Brian
San Francisco, CA

16

stop that now!

frank yee and lum jo had a meeting and settled the issue you should not try to bringup again just to start some sort of contraversy

17

issues

brian,

you did say in your first post, that most people have agreed to a general truce, can you explain to me who these “people are”, where did you get this information from???

i see only two names on the statement.

i totally agree with you that the “idea” is a good one, if you read my first post here, you will understand that i too, say this and support it.

you say we shouldn’t bring this up, since it has been going on for over 50yrs, i too have said this, however one must ask, who should have stopped and let it rest??.

i will not go into detail here, i see no reason as this is a general forum, however, when the situation arose in the early 1950’s,(it was going on way before this, but not to the public), there was strong re-action to what was written and even too an advert in the hong kong papers, things settled down, and these where not spoken off again.

well to the general public anyway, and chiu kau si dai gung was supportive to lam jo si dai gung after these incidents.

so if everyone is asking that we stop bickering over this, i ask only one thing, why has it resurfaced??, what was the purpose of doing such a thing???

this did not come from certain families only one, the lam family, so why did they bring it up again??? how imbalanced is the argument, when those that take offence to it, get emotional, this is only normal human reaction.

should this subject be discussed by us, well unfortunatly it was brought out to the public by a general forum, on open web sites, by the reaction of these sites, the time of correctness was lost or given away.

is it our place to discuss things of this nature, well from a family/lineage personal level, NO! however since we are all family, and at times family members do things that they should know better,family are permitted to speak.

if you are hung kuen player, then these things are of importance, depending on your place depends or your actions.

do i think a truce is good for the entire community, the answer without question is YES, however i come back to my question, why are there only two names on the statement, where are the others???

doug,

i here what you are saying, just to correct first, it was yee chi wai sifu and lam chun fai sifu who had the discussion, not lam jo si dai gung, however i do understand the ethics of such discussions.

how can you say it is over, and not to bring up such things, if other family members still have issues with it?? chi ling sifu is asking questions, why is it these could not have been settled at the sametime lam chun fai sifu was in america, chi ling sifu was in the country at the time.

to that effect chan hon chung si dai gung,one of his son’s was also in america at the time, he could have also been advised of the meeting and been at the discussion.

chi ling sifu tried to get discussions going with lam chun fai sifu in hong kong, but these where not forth coming.

i see from all this, frustration from all sides, however if things need to be clarified,then all parities must get together and discuss.

in the old days arbitraries where used, this can still be accomplished today.

like i have said, action speaks louder than words, these actions must take place.

as i have said again and again, is it the personnal that is being looked at or is it the art??

18

Post 300 is one of your best postings Bean Curd.

The statement of Martin is probably with permission of Chiu Chi Ling. I cannot think of Martin starting a debate on this forum without it.

The only positive affect I see at this moment is that Lam Chun Fai, Chiu Chi Ling and Chiu Wai are very active giving public seminars. Hung Gar is growing, expanding.
Probably a ‘law of economics’ that fighting and expansion are insparable.

19

Let’s shake and call it even.

Bean curd,

I don’t know if their is anything personal about the situation. Frankly, it’s none of my business. I let the people who are involved with this debate, deal with the subject matter at hand. What I personnally object to is the negative discussions that result from this issue. It really has nothing to do with anyone but the elders. It is not our right, I feel to delve into these things. I don’t mind constructive debate about things that we can do as a community as whole to propagate our art.

As a practitioner, I frankly don’t care whether Chu Kau trained with Lam Sai Wing or Lam Jo. I would rather concentrate on practicing and talking about things that we can do to bring Hung gar to the future generations.

So I say let’s all start with a clean slate. Let’s all put our differances aside and talk about the future rather then the past. Let us all be one family once again.

Brian
San Francisco, CA

20

brian,

there is no need to “shake hands and call it even”.

this was a healthy discussion nothing more, so there is no need for this action.

more could be said, however i have said enough at this time, and since you wish to finalise this conversation, i am more than happy to comply with your request.

hopefully we can talk again on other matters more enjoyable and one day have some yum cha,

joi kin