Question for water Dragon

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
41

Good Reply

To tell you the truth all you guys have good points in your post replys. My opinion on this matter is no matter what style you train in or how much philosophy or fighting tactics you learn.

If the practitioner is not condition and his techniques are not practical, then no matter what style a person learn the person method of combat will be useless in any situation.

My opinion is internal Martial art in the old days had real warriors. But today all you see is fallacious scholar warriors that talk like professional internal martial artist, but in real life they are not scholar or warrior. but are timid souls living a lie. these kind of people is what give the internal martial arts a bad name and why external look down on the internal martial artists.

A individual just have to train they style of combat practical.

The three styles in my opinion are not the same. I have train in all three for some years now. Each style has its own characteristics and its own advantages. When I practice Hsing YI Boxing, my mind set is more on attacking for attacking is Hsing YI defensive.

This is what makes Hsing YI so powerful in combat. And this is why Hsing Yi is not for timid mind individual." Hsing YI fighting is more active then passive. The way I learn from Master Li Tai Liang Offensive is used as a defense. And to be first in a fight a individual can not be timid, a person must have a killer mind set.

When I practice Tai Chi my mind set is more relaxed. My mind is not thinking about offensive but my mind is focuses more on yielding, neutralizing and skicking. My strategy is more on defense as the preparation for an attack. In my opinion this is why Tai Chi is a good style for the timid individual that wants to learn how to fight.

BEST FOR LAST." LOL

BAGUAZHANG. When I practice BaGuaZhang my mind is more on uprooting my opponent and throw him to the ground hard." BaGua is more fun in my opinion to practice then tai chi or Hsing Yi. A individual that practice BaGuaZhang don’t have to take a rooted stance to uproot an opponent like tai chi or Hsing YI practitioners have to. Bagua is World Renowned for striking with great power when on the move and not have to utilize a rooted stance. Tai Chi And Hsing YI are Renowned for they rooted stance to issue jing power.

The BaGuaZhang walking the circle gives the BaGua practitioner a twisting energy generated from the rapid turning in practicing the circle walking, a source of twisting energy power and a moving root that Tai Chi or Hsing YI will never develop to the same high level as a BaGua man.(movement within stillness) Tai Chi and Hsing YI do have reling silk auxiliary training. But the Bagua practitioners develop this from from day one, when he learns how to walk the circle.

In my opinion BaGuaZhang is the most high level efficient internal martial art to learn, and hard to utilized in combat if the practitioner don’t have real fighting experienced. A person need little experience to learn how to fight with Tai Chi and Hsing Yi if that person learning from a good teacher. BaGuaZhang principles and practice methods are very deep.

“TO DEEP.” This is why the comprehension level of the BaGuaZhang practitioner must be high.(have good understanding) Within BaguaZhang there are many variations and fighting methods. In Tai Chi and Hsing YI there are only a few.

Any Body can learn and comprehen theories and principles, but it takes real fighting experienced to utilized any external or internal martial art. And thats just the genuine truth."

The best thing about the three internal martial arts is if a person practice all three they get to view and compare the three styles from more then one angle…

The more angles you look at something from , the better you will understand it.
:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

Peace to all, any happy Kwanzua:)

42

Well, YA but, How 'bout answering some of these questions?

I’d be interested in hearing how you “tai chi guys” are learning and training that makes things so complex and time consuming? Don’t you drill each posture/form on both sides?

Yes and no. I only do the form on one side. I do single postures extensively on both sides.

What about steps and walking? What about specific chan su jin drills?

Nope, just the form (based on proper body mechanics)

What kind of fight training are you doing?

A lot of push hands and sparring (more push hands)

? Dealing with different ranges, angles, hitting or getting hit?

Again, push hands and sparring

The one unique thing I noticed about Taiji is we don’t have an application for the movements. Instead, if we learn an app(which is rare) we are told “OK, this is like X move from the form.” This also makes using Taiji different. Here’s an excerpt from a conversation I seem to have too **** much whenever another MA’ist finds out I do Taiji:

HIM: You do Taiji as a martial art?
ME: Yup
HIM: Show me
ME: OK, come at me
HIM: How?
ME: I don’t care
HIM: Then what are you gonna do?
ME: I don’t know
HIM: Well, how are you gonna show me?
ME: Just punch me then OK?
HIM: How?
ME: However you want

Usually at this point they throw a punch and I’ll yield/stick and follow up

HIM: Wow, that’s cool!! What’s that
ME: I don’t know
HIM: Can you do it again?
ME: Probably not
HIM: Then wht would you do if I attacked you again?
ME: I don’t know. whatever works
HIM: That doesn’t make sense
ME: Yeah, that’s why Taiji’s no good for fighting

:smiley:

43

great skit

peace

44

Thanks. I had that conversation last night when I went to a school. I think they’re so used to the “If he does A I’ll do B mentality” the “You act and I’ll react” thing really throws them off.

45

Yo Blacktaoist,

it’s the second day of Kwanzaa, but Umoja anyway. You wrote:

[BT]
“Within BaguaZhang there are many variations and fighting methods. In Tai Chi and Hsing YI there are only a few.”

I’m trying to understand. Are you talking about the “peng, lu, ji, an, tsai, lieh, kao, zhou” methods, and the five directions? It’s probably right to limit tjq to those. It’s also true that the first eight are considered related to the “eight trigrams” (in the T’ai chi Ch’uan ching, supposedly written by Chang San Feng). But, fact is, in the first first book thought to be specifically on tjq (THE TREATISE ON T’AI CHI CH’UAN attributed to Wang Tsung-yueh), it says

“Although there are innumerable variations,
the principles that pervades them remain the same.”

And, many people have argued, correctly imo, that tjq has “no set form, no set function.” The people in you meet in tjq who are limited by specific technique are simply limited by technique. It’s not an expected part of the art.

Best,
Esteban

46

Esteban

Esteban,

        Are you talking about the "peng, lu, ji, an, tsai, lieh, kao, zhou" methods, and the five directions?

What I’m talking about is conditioning Training not Tui Shou (push hands) or peng, lu, ji, an, tsai, lieh, kao, Zhou’ methods or any theory applications of Tai Chi. Today Tai Chi practitioners don’t practice any conditioning training methods for power. Most think that practicing just the tai chi Form and push hands is all they need to enhance skill. Then when they met a professional Martial artists and spar them and can’t utilize they techniques, or they Tai Chi techniques just don’t have jing issuing ability to stop they opponent in a fight.

Then in my opinion that person is just a normal Martial artist with some skill that wiill get him by on a low level fighter, but will get them nowhere with a professional Martial artist that trains in Martial art conditioning training. A martial artist that practice power and conditioning methods will always win over the internal practitioner that don’t practice Conditioning methods.

And in my Opinion most Tai Chi practitioners do practice any conditioning Methonds. All they talk about is push hands and form and chi kung standing. But I never hear you them talk about methods to practice to cultivate heavy arm tendon strength, or post conditioning training. Or Any kind of contact or full contact training methods. After all Tai Chi is a combat martial art.
peace

:slight_smile: :slight_smile:

47

Hi Blacktaoist,

I wrote:
“Are you talking about the “peng, lu, ji, an, tsai, lieh, kao, zhou” methods, and the five directions?”

You wrote:
“What I’m talking about is conditioning Training not Tui Shou (push hands) or peng, lu, ji, an, tsai, lieh, kao, Zhou’ methods or any theory applications of Tai Chi.”

Esteban
Oops, my mistake, I thought you were talking about the number of techniques or methods in tjq.

Then you made three points:
“Today Tai Chi practitioners don’t practice any conditioning training methods for power.”

I think it depends on who you talk to. You can talk about what you’ve seen. You know Max and WCC Chen, and Sifu Rudy can tell you about the “old days.” Besides, you’re just generalizing.

[BT]
“Most think that practicing just the tai chi Form and push hands is all they need to enhance skill.”

I guess for some that is true. But, that’s not even what’s written down plainly in the books. So, you should probably argue with people who say that. So, far, I don’t think anyone’s said that in this thread. Quite the opposite.

[BT]
“Then when they met a professional Martial artists and spar them and can’t utilize they techniques, or they Tai Chi techniques just don’t have jing issuing ability to stop they opponent in a fight.”

Esteban
Here you are right on target, but, as I said, the standard for me is “Mike Tyson”, “Hulk Hogan”, olympic wrestlers, etc. That’s because we’re not talking about “average” people, right. Don’t you just get sick when people say that there aren’t any bagua people in NHB events? I mean, why not? Anyway, I think you’re right. There are very, very few tjq practitioners who practice to the extent of a professional martial artist. Few could defeat one. That is true. On the other hand, there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Best,
Steve Esteban James
:slight_smile:

48

Esteban, are you a Chen head?

49

Hi Water Dragon,

“a Chen head”? You mean practice Chen style. Nope, I’ve had friends who were early students of Ren, but my longest experience (25+) is in Yang derived styles. For the last 15+ years, I’ve been pretty eclectic, studying with people from all over. But, my “base” style is tjq. BTW, I’m not interested at all in style differentiation. It’s like having 3 cars in the garage. You can only use one at a time anyway. And, if it takes a second to decide, you might as well give up. Just my opinion.

Best,
Esteban

50

Ooops, I meant Chen head as in a William CC Chen student. My bad.

51

Esteban you are right I am just generalizing. But there are people out there that think that forms and push hands is all they need to practice. And I also read this kind of information in Tai Chi books of today.

peace.:cool:

52

Hi Water Dragon,

“I meant Chen head as in a William CC Chen student.” Well, in that circle, but not directly from him. Some of the people around him introduced me to other people, etc., etc. W.C.C. Chen’s approach was, and I guess is, interesting to me because the striking/boxing emphasis sort of comes natural, and because using gloves, etc., was the most common form of competition. Anyway, I don’t believe in talking too much about teachers. In my case, I might only embarrass them or put them up to ridicule.

Best,
Esteban

53

Sure, cool. Yeah, I’ve heard all sorts of comments about the glove works. Oh well, to each his own. It’s worked extremely well for me :smiley:

Anyway, I’m liking your posts. I can respect your viewpoint from what I see.