flem
i guess it isn’t a secret but you seem so determined it wouldn’t work whatever it is so i feel there is no reason to tell you. You don’t want to answer many of my questions either. If you think of it hard enough you could probably think of something.
hua lin, - good example, i’m glad to see you don’t need ninja smoke bombs either!
flem- do you do guo lo tzai? Have you ever had your punch plucked? Where is your body going? Not too difficult to get past the guy.
18elders
the only questions of yours that i have not answered concern my profile, which as i said previously -seems logical to me since so many want to attack one another. i assume the application is useless otherwise you would say. i believe you brought it up simply to demonstrate that you have the inner knowledge where you are now, whereas WLers are being kept in the dark. so, i assume you read my previous post on angles? i have no arguement there. i do with the 180 thing though.
have i ever had my punch plucked? yes- in practice- not in free sparring
i gave the elbow to toe some thought- hook opponents kick, sweep leg, elbow strike- close?
by the way, have you been taking your meds?
flem
your close.
yep, i’ve been taking my medicine, i doubled up on the dosage so i will be a happier person.
I don’t think by telling who you are in your profile will make people want to attack you. People can attack you now without knowing who you are.
We may know each other but you won’t give an idea of who your sifu was or where you trained?
18elders
no, i’m not talking about verbal attacks, i’m talking about all these challenges people are so quick to issue. but back to our discussion. i replied to your scenerio with 16 hands and it is obviously going no where. but you did not respond to my lo han scenerio. if i heel kick at the end of the first pass, how is it possible for the same person to be in range to use the back side kick?( without the smoke bomb, that is!). i agree that the majority of moves are best applied against a single opponent, but i think that the changes of direction are to train one to counter multiple opponents. remember that these arts were designed around war, not simply personal duels. in short, i think that you are limiting your options, perhaps simply because of your belief in 2 mans. really, to me, the arts are a total preparation. i think even limiting our discussions to combat doesn’t do justice to the arts. look at the straight kick. we learned it straight up. and later master chan does it straight and across the body- this trains both sides of the hamstring, as opposed to just one side. it is interesting how complete MA training is.
My understanding is the original exercise was kiss-the-toe but since very few people can do that it was modified to elbow-to-toe. Kiss-the-toe is the ultimate goal of the exercise. Sorry, I don’t know of any application for kiss-the-toe. My initial thought on elbow-to-toe application is that it’s an elbow strike. That seems obvious. What I don’t see is how a worthwhile target is laying across your hooked foot. If the hooked foot was a trip there would be no target for the elbow.
I just got a farfetched idea but it’s too difficult to explain. Probably won’t work anyhow but it involves hooking the foot to trip while locking opponents arm. The final position would basically be elbow-to-toe but applying a lock as you press down towards toe. Hey SaMantis, you busy?
hua lin lao shi
have you seen thier posture? the elbow extends in the stretch while the opposite hand is extentended in the opposite direction in a hooking pose- which i have found to be superior to WL for those who cannot “kiss the toe”. it is because of the rear hand and because thy tend to use a “chopping” sweep when standing, that i thought that the sweep and elbow would arrive simultaneously. if that is not it, then the extendended leg could simply trap the opponents supporting leg. in any case the elbow better land 'cause your face is right there begging to be hit.
Chin to Toe
Not being smart, but the name is actually “Cloud Hands, Stretch the Leg” exercise. AT least how it is named in our school and other Asian school where I have seen the similar exercise.
Also, “kiss the toe” is fairly easy", after a good warm up, the actual goal to to touch your chin to the toe. Of course unless you have an unusually protruding chin bone or elongated skull. Not that mine is perfectly round.
Also, good apps to the exercise, guys. I don’t think 18 elders was suggesting that these exercises are keys to fighting, though generally stating that in Martial ARts and in particularly Chinese MA, everything does have a use or application. Another prime example would be the simple exercise called “Fu Yang”. Where you stand feet shoulder apart, bend waist backwards looking back and then forward looking between your legs, hands hooked in the air. Legs always locked, focusing on strengthening the lower back, stretching hams and shoulders. In appl. this is used in combo with a leg grab (grabbinb to outside of a side kick, etc.) and then hooked in such a position to pick the other man up (backwards) on one’s back and throw him to the ground. Also an example of moving to one’s back side with one step.
Just ffod for thought.
18 elders, the medicine is working well.
Flem, No one will pose challenges. I am getting old and frail, 18 elders is the strong, fiesty one. Obviously you have checked out our school, observant at Screema’s seminar, and / or studied with TM to know the exercise. Stop by the school anytime for tea.
Chin to Toe
Not being smart, but the name can also be called “Cloud Hands, Stretch the Leg” exercise. AT least how it is named in our school and other Asian school where I have seen the similar exercise.
Also, “kiss the toe” is fairly easy", after a good warm up, the actual goal to to touch your chin to the toe. Of course unless you have an unusually protruding chin bone or elongated skull. Not that mine is perfectly round.
Also, good apps to the exercise, guys. I don’t think 18 elders was suggesting that these exercises are keys to fighting, though generally stating that in Martial ARts and in particularly Chinese MA, everything does have a use or application. Another prime example would be the simple exercise called “Fu Yang”. Where you stand feet shoulder apart, bend waist backwards looking back and then forward looking between your legs, hands hooked in the air. Legs always locked, focusing on strengthening the lower back, stretching hams and shoulders. In appl. this is used in combo with a leg grab (grabbinb to outside of a side kick, etc.) and then hooked in such a position to pick the other man up (backwards) on one’s back and throw him to the ground. Also an example of moving to one’s back side with one step.
Just ffod for thought.
18 elders, the medicine is working well.
Flem, No one will pose challenges. I am getting old and frail, 18 elders is the strong, fiesty one. Obviously you have checked out our school, observant at Screema’s seminar, and / or studied with TM to know the exercise. Stop by the school anytime for tea.
flem
I haven’t you seen thier posture so I guess I’ll never get it. Even with the other arm movement I still don’t see a viable target near the tripping or sweeping foot. I’ll still keep kicking it around.
At the end of the first run of 18 Elbows after finishing the attacker (hook/elbow/turn/elbow/step back/block and chop to throat) you immedialtely turn and defend attack. This person cannot be the one you just finished off, even if you didn’t finish him off.
Pong Lai
Kiss-the-toe may be fairly easy for you but I haven’t seen many who are able to do it. I’m fairly flexable and even at my best I can’t do it. Some people are long in the leg, others are long in the body. If my hip to foot is longer than my hip to head it ain’t happening. At least that’s what I think is part of the problem for me.
We have applications for ebay and bow so I guess it makes sense that there would be applications for everything.
hua lin,
i’m usually in on Saturdays if you want to try an app – sounds interesting!
I was thinking about the elbow-to-toe exercise … I’m just now learning little mantis (yeah, I know, I’m a baby when it comes to kung fu!) … and there’s a part just after the beginning where you move from cat-stance, hook-mantis into seven-star-stance, strike-downward. The strike is supposed to be very low, perhaps against the opponent’s leg?
Anyway, the move requires a bit of flexibility and seems like elbow-to-toe will improve this movement, even if the applications between exercise and stance are different. Also, in seven-star stance the foot is hooked upward (just like in elbow-to-toe), and in the move after this one you come up into golden chicken. In this transition could you hook the opponent’s leg and throw him off balance as you come up?
I’m just pondering the move … feel free to tell me if it has any merit. 
Sam
samantis
i hope you don’t mind if i jump in- i think to hook the foot would depend on your opponents weight distribution- they would have to be light on the foot initially and transferring weight to it as you pull - otherwise it would be useless. your arm attack is good to me i believe the 1st strike breaks, the left hand slaps it away and the 2nd hand attack punches through. the knee to me servres 2 purposes, to defend against low kick and to cover the lower gate. by the way, what happened to the straiht form apps?
hua lin lau shi
you seem to be thinking of striking at their/your foot area, i was saying it strikes on the way to the foot.
pong lai
my, i thought you accepted a challenge and were never going to be heard from again! i don’t drink tea, it doesn’t help my drunken boxing.
seriously, it is not the regulars here that give me concern. it’s those who read but do not speak, besides what’s the big deal? if i say something you do not agree with you can ignore it, discuss it whatever. there are alot of people here i do not know. in fact i have looked at few profiles- because 1 i don’t give a ****, 2 i think i can learn from anyone, 3 the profile may or may not be accurate
but i’ll stop by if i’m in the area, i’d be glad to.
Little Mantis
Wah Lum example of behind the opponent
The third takedown in Little Mantis you spin around in a circle as you kick and move forward and finish with single finger.
In this two person exercise the opponent gets out of the throw and is behind you.
If you had been succesful in the throw, then the opponent would have been on the floor, but the escape causes him to get behind you.
So in practice you deal with this situation where someone is throwing a punch to the back of your neck(ouch!) and you deal with it using the next moves of the form.
Of special note:
From my research the single finger technique in Little and Big Mantis is called double closing hands in other PM styles and doesn’t have the one finger point up, nor the “yee”.
It can be subsumed under Wang Lang’s 8th, and final, rigid technique as can the turning throw just before it.
In fact this throw is most likely were the original name of the form comes from-which means to bolt shut the iron door.
This single finger method was a modification most likely by Chan Wan Ching, but I’m not sure.
Flem,
no, I don’t mind, any information will help improve my form! You’re right, hooking the opponent’s leg with your foot probably wouldn’t work unless you knew they were transferring weight and not grounded. Sorry about not getting right back to you on straight form, I went through it a couple times this week and agree with your summation of it – the left hand slaps the forearm to reinforce the idea that it should be there as a guard; also to illustrate that the hand can be used to trap the opponent’s arm at certain points. I also discovered that if you slap hard enough, your arm gets *****in’ red! 
Tainan Mantis,
Interesting that the single finger method is different in other PM styles. Maybe CWC created a sort of “signature” to identify a Wah Lum stylist?
YEEE!!!
I seem to recall somewhere a while ago my Sifu mentining something about the single finger “yee” having something to do with the boxer rebellion, but I could be wrong. This might be different than the finger postures at the beginning of WL forms like Fan Cha. Please don’t quote me on that, or try to bash my sifu.
Also, as far as applications of techniques go, or at least the elbow to toe thing, remember the roots of kung fu at Shaolin temple. If memory serves me correctly, the origional techniques taught my TaMo were stretches, not necissarily used for fighting. So is there an application to elbow to toe? Probably. Would I want to try it in an altercatoin? Probably not…
)))Solar Stance(((
solarstance
good point. the best post i ever read here involved saying an application can be costrued from changing a baby’s diaper, though i cannot remember who said it. i think it is best as a strech as well. in fact, am i the only one to have noticed that elbow to toe has been adopted by aerobic and other exercise fields? as i said before, i think this app was brought up to show one’s inside knowledge of PM and nothing more.
samantis
i thought you were shunning me. using the right arm alone in the straight form app is really good. the uppercut motion defends against the opponent’s left hand, clearing it to the outside so that the punch is delivred inside their guard- at which time the left is used to defend the opponent’s other hand.
SaMantis
The beginning of Little Mantis is a break. That move could also attack the leg or block. Raising the right arm blocks (opponent broke free from break and attacks) while the left hand strikes then right punch. I could also grab and pull down low punching to the head. There are multiple scenerios for the opening moves. I’m sure you guys (and gals) can think of other variations.
Also, the Chut Sing Ma can attack the foot (stomping heel kick) or hook the leg throwing opponent off balance finishing with the right punch sending him backwards to the ground.
Flem
The Chut Sing Ma (hooked foot) when applied to opponents foot is used to stomp the foot or trip. When followed by Golden Chicken the hook is applied to the back of the knee, not the foot or ankle. Golden Chicken is more than just a leg block.
You’re correct in that I was thinking the target was where the elbow was at the end of the move. I wasn’t thinking of the follow through.
Tainan Mantis
I guess I’m a little dense today. I’m lost on your Little Mantis example. I know what section you’re talking about but I guess I missed the throw. After the Dung Tui/Weong Chang Tui/LHS turn (the 3rd kick was taken out years ago)/scrape off single finger there is a grab and sweep. So you’re saying that with the LHS turn you’re throwing? That doesn’t really seem to fit the moves.
Hey guys I’m back.
SolarStance is correct (have you watched cult master lately? )
The one finger palm was a sign used to communicate between rebel groups and to see who was on what side during the oppression of the Qing government.
One more good point that our friend SolarStance has showed is that some ercersises are simply excercises that are meant to improve health and condition.
Hello all.
I would like to comment on a few of the current themes of the thread.
Flem & SaMantis-
RE: slapping the forarm with piet choy (as in Little Mantis, Straight Form, etc), I agree with all explainations/applications offered, but I feel that the biggest reason for slapping the forearm is to insure that fajing is being employed.
The single finger method with the “yee” is (in my humble opinion) the kusow or “bridge hand” of Hung Gar. This goes back to the Southern influence of Wah Lum. In fact, in the WL red book on page 26 (and other places), Master Chan states "So 36 hands is a combination of 5 different styles including the Hong (a.k.a. “Hung, as in Hung Gar, which is Southern) style and also the northern moves”. This is a signature move from the Hung system and it appears in many WL forms (36 Hands, 18 elbows, First Form, Little Mantis, Big Mantis, etc). I’m not saying that it’s good or bad, just saying that it’s there. The red book is a wealth of information-all interested in the WL system should get it.
It is written from a series of lectures that Master Chan gave in the seventies (older is better sometimes).
Also, regarding the whole application to elbow to toe issue-
18 Elders stated that there is an application to all the basic exercises. He also said that he never learned this until he left the system and I’m sure (by what he posts) that he went ****her in the system than I did. I also never learned the applications to the 8 basic exercises. However, in the WL red book, on page 68, Master Chan states “In every technique that you learn, there is a certain amount of practical application. Starting with every move in the first 6 basic exercises. These you should learn for their application, not just as exercises: Bai Fut Sao, Whut Yu, Jao Ma, Maat Hurl, Chieh Tieh, Pow Choi, and Jieh Yeah…”
Apparently 18 Elders is right!
Hello all.
I would like to comment on a few of the current themes of the thread.
Flem & SaMantis-
RE: slapping the forarm with piet choy (as in Little Mantis, Straight Form, etc), I agree with all explainations/applications offered, but I feel that the biggest reason for slapping the forearm is to insure that fajing is being employed.
The single finger method with the “yee” is (in my humble opinion) the kusow or “bridge hand” of Hung Gar. This goes back to the Southern influence of Wah Lum. In fact, in the WL red book on page 26 (and other places), Master Chan states "So 36 hands is a combination of 5 different styles including the Hong (a.k.a. “Hung, as in Hung Gar, which is Southern) style and also the northern moves”. This is a signature move from the Hung system and it appears in many WL forms (36 Hands, 18 elbows, First Form, Little Mantis, Big Mantis, etc). I’m not saying that it’s good or bad, just saying that it’s there. The red book is a wealth of information-all interested in the WL system should get it.
It is written from a series of lectures that Master Chan gave in the seventies (older is better sometimes).
Also, regarding the whole application to elbow to toe issue-
18 Elders stated that there is an application to all the basic exercises. He also said that he never learned this until he left the system and I’m sure (by what he posts) that he went ****her in the system than I did. I also never learned the applications to the 8 basic exercises. However, in the WL red book, on page 68, Master Chan states “In every technique that you learn, there is a certain amount of practical application. Starting with every move in the first 6 basic exercises. These you should learn for their application, not just as exercises: Bai Fut Sao, Whut Yu, Jao Ma, Maat Hurl, Chieh Tieh, Pow Choi, and Jieh Yeah…”
Apparently 18 Elders is right!
hua lin lao shi
like the behind the knee idea, never dawned on me. i don’t understand tainans throw either, perhaps he can give detail?
jack squat
insure fa jing to whom? to the practitioner or the teacher grading the performance? why does one need that for insurance when it can be felt otherwise?
i do not think anyone questioned the validity of 18elders “basics” post, atleast that was not my intent. i wanted to know the app. as well as the intent for which it was given. it seems to me that it implied that the “secrets” were being held back, and i do not think that is the case.