Art, Wallace, Tracy, Sean, Pablo, and Tom. All got too big to have a teacher like Master Chan. Now some call themselves “Master”, so they must be, who can tell? Wah Lum’s loss? Or their own? Time and behavior will tell. Till then the rest of us can try and improve in miniscule increments.
18elders
apparently your techniques do not work if you, as you say, hit the hell out of one another. if they did, you wouldn’t need the whole set! i do not misunderstand what you are saying. you are saying that you train the techniques of your style in as realistic manner as possible. what you evidently do not unerstand about what i am saying is that however worthy the drill, it is not the real thing. i train apps just as you do but because what i do is not a 2 person set does not mean it is ineffective. on the contrary, it leaves the door open to innovation. if i learned the one man version of your form i could not only(conceivably) come up with the same app as the set, but also many others. i would like to know the application to elbow to toe, i undestand that the mantis hook is up and behind, but as far as application goes, power-wise i cannot understand it’s effectiveness
i am quite certain that you were as taken by the previous styles that you have studied as the one you are now practicing, obviously so, atleast with WL, by the time you put in.
as far as what i teach, why is that important? are you unsure that i am qualified to hold this discussion? i know all of the people you mentioned except TT.
by the way, you always seem angry, though it is difficult to tell that through typing?
spiralstair
not all of them got too big, some did, with others i think they got tired of the game
flem
hit each other-
when we kick we kick hard, when we hit same thing so when you block of course you’re going to feel it. it’s not the techn’s don’t work it is we do it with power behind it.
so what style do you teach?
who was your wah lum teacher?
do i think you are qualified? Can’t answer that since you won’t answer any of my questions about your training history and teachers.
what students of art’s do you know?
am i always angry? as long as i take my medication i’m okay.
tired of the game? explain the game.
18elders
again, i’m not puting down what you do. don’t any of your blows ever go in unblocked? if no then the two of you are dancing (so to speak), if so then it should stun or injure the partner, either way it will break from the 2 man.
i don’t really want to say who i am. in fact that is why my profile is the way it is. it is more, i feel as wisdom rather having so much to do with hiding anything, seeing people like CV and whoever that other one is. all someone has to do is be misunderstood here and the place goes berserk, then people as i mentioned come out of the shadows. i am very familiar w/ the WL “family”, from the years that i was there. i have also studied tkd, shorin ryu karate, and northern shaolin. what do i teach? lets just say tai chi with material that looks alot like KF in it.
the game? you were there long enough to have played.
18elders,
thanks for the info on Nick Scrima’s tournament! I hope I can attend. 
flem,
great info on the straight form movements – i’ll try to visualize them as I practice. (Unless I can convince my training partner to let me break his arm – you know, for educational purposes). Thanks!
Sam
To 18elders
18elders " empty hand forms are for a single opponent, not 3 or 4 people"
To say that empty hand forms are for single opponents is wrong.
Question #14 page 29 of my WLKF handbook states,“What does Eight - Chain Punch teach…striking multiple opponents”
In fact the very begining of 16 hands is also attacking multiple opponents.
Little Open Gate also has several instances of attacking multiple opponents. ex. moving from Cern Chung Choy to elbow attack.
You have overlooked important techniques, I suggest you go back over your earlier forms with your Sifu.
samantis
show me yours and i’ll show you mine. hey, what do you think? do you have other uses of the movement? you tell me one.
snappingknee
hanks, i forgot about that. but i think WL anything is useless to 18elders.
FLEM
Thanks for your reply.
The student definatly has to bring oneself to the training.
They either make or break their experience.
I agree that in class all out and the real fight are two different things. HOWEVER, I do think that the training will prepare one for the real thing. Furthermore the more diligent the practice one does, the closer he/she will come to using their techniques in a fight. Basically they will not revert back to “kickboxing.”
Of course, the techniques will not be exactly like one practices in forms.
If all training goes (techniques) go out the door in the real thing, why train at all?
Also, I never implied that you danced in your two man sets. and it wasn’t intended that way either.
Why does it matter if I’m a Pong Lai person or not?
FLEM
My Shr fu was trained using two man sets/ drill/ knocking the crap out of one another. I can attest that he can use his techniques in “the real thing.”
snappingknee
16 hands-
did you ever think the guy blocked and got behind you making you change your direction?
18elders
perhaps if all one knows is 16 hands then it may be possible to get behind them. but for someone with experience it is just impracticle to practice, unless of course by practicing it you become quicker or something. i can tell you this, you’re not getting behind me without a ninja smoke bomb!
joemantis
have you seen your shrfu in a fight, or are you drawing conclusions based on his skill in class? i am not putting him down, i don’t even know him, i am suggesting that no matter how realistic your training seems it is just training. 2 person sets are fine, my point about my not dancing was simply to illustate that i have experienced them full blast, have hit and been hit doing them and i have also been hit in freestyle environment - and of the two it was the latter that i feel is both indespensable and far lacking in most classes( due mostly to liability probably, and that participation will likely diminish quickly).
also, i said before but i did not ellaborate on, during my time in WL the most skilled practitioners were often, and probably still are, seen as the best or most skilled practitioner. people often have the belief that because one is awesome in forms that they must also be awesome in fighting - but that is not always the case. also along the same lines are those who appear as though they are tough- anyway i know from experience that it is often the poindexter, the guy that doesn’t make alot of “noise” who is often a highly skilled fighter. it would be easy to use names to explain this but that would be wrong.
FLEM
I think you and I are talking about the same stuff. The real thing is the real thing, no matter how close to realistic training is.
I agree that if one is good in forms does not mean that they can fight. Example, WL. There are a lot of great forms guys in that system.
I think that where we differ is the training and the how to achieve the use of one’s kung fu. Obviously it is possible because people have been doing it for thousands of years.
How do you train your students to use their kung fu if/when in a fight? As a teacher I’m assuming that this is your goal for your students. Do you train your students to use their techniques of your system, or do you revert to basic punching and kicking “kickboxing” when it comes to the fighting aspect?
Furthermore as an experienced practioner I also assume that you can tell someone’s MARTIAL ability by the way they move.
18elders
16hands-- No one on this earth can block a thrown punch and move 180’ to my backside in the 1/3rd of a second it takes to complete the movement. If you can actually visualize this, or better yet accomplish it, you should start your own art. Could you teach me those moves I saw in the Matrix??? I can see your point from the change in stance/punch in a 90’ movement but not a 180’ movement. If you disagree offer a detailed explanation.
joe mantis
i teach as i was taught. that is i teach the postures, the sequence of movement and most importantly i teach the rules of body posture- for example, the proper alignment of each bodypart in relation to the others, both still and moving. as for application, that is a personal matter. i feel that the past ready or fighting posture is that of jeet kune do, which is in reality a stand up mantis posture. if a guy comes to me with say a real skill in boxing, like having been in golden gloves, i am not going to say that kung fu is better. instead, i am going to show him how the KF can fit with his aquired skill. i believe that everyone has unque ability and insight, so i do not try to make them conform to a standard, with the exception of the fundamental rules that i spoke of earlier.
a typical application session of mine is to introduce an app have the students work it and then break away from it- by that i mean they work out counters against it. the following session is a similar technique or one that neutralizes most or all of the counters in the previous class.
yes i can judge another by the way they move, but that has more to do with their focus, more than the movement itself, atleast as far as experienced practitioners anyway
snappingknee
a good example is the change of direction in the first run of beng bu.
think about your footwork, i bet i could show you how to do it very easily.
Have you ever trained in bagua? It is not difficult to get behind someone
18elders
i don’t know the form. could you explain what happens that allows you to get behind and what position you are in, as far as range goes, once you’re there?
my impession of getting behind in your set is that it teaches the attacker a weakness in that they do not respond by following the defender’s movement.
also, what about the applcation of elbow to toe? is it a secret, or is the application useless?
snappingknee
“16hands-- No one on this earth can block a thrown punch and move 180’ to my backside in the 1/3rd of a second it takes to complete the movement”.
I can. Step left (on an angle)/left arm blocking the punch/Lady Horse/step left while turning out of LHS/backfist to back of head. Basically, you throw a right punch and I roll around your right side and attack your rear. Sounds like a lot but it can be executed quickly.
Don’t forget to utilize your stances!
I also learned a simple move in Kenpo where you step left (angle) blocking with the left and swinging the right fist up and across hitting back of head. This defends against a right punch where attacker steps in with puch. With a lunging attack you will effectivly be behind the attacker. Different than the opening move of 16 Hands.
flem
I agree with your position concerning teaching people with other training how your techniques integrate or compliment previously learned techniques. When I bounced around the Karate world I hated starting in a new school and being told “That’s not how to punch, this is the right way”. There isn’t a right way or wrong way, just stylistic differences.
18elders
I don’t think you’re going to get away from that elbow-to-toe statement. 
I also do not know Beng Bu so could you find another example? Or is it along the same lines as my example above to snappingknee?
hua lin laoshi
practically speaking i don’t think the step behind is possible. i have trained several techniques that use it but to me, unless your opponent is using a punch like the 3 long punchs in lo han, then they cannot be very skilled. also, with the possible exception of dung tui, the apps lack any real effect- and even that one is not applied 180 degrees(correctly), in fact the one you describe seems to be applied earlier than 180. i agree with angles, don’t get me wrong. but getting behind me, like i said- 18elders needs the ninja smoke bomb.