I’ll start the explanation of the throw from left 7* stance with left mantis hook right groin strike. If you know which move I’m refering to hopefull you can follow my meaning. If it isn’t clear just say so.
Partner:left stance left punch
Form performer: left grab.
right leg step behind P’s left leg in 7* stance
Right groin strike
P:Right downblock (to protect groin)
F:left hand continue to hold P’s left wrist.
Right groin strike hand smashes into P’s left elbow to break it while right leg kicks P’s left knee(both of hands must move together slightly to break elbow).
P:Bend left elbow so it doesn’t break
Step back with left leg as it is kicked so right leg is now forward.
F: Don’t fight P’s pulling power. Follow him while firmly holding his left hand.
No need to use the second kick to kick his knee. But perform that same type of motion to make your right foot land on the ground next to P’s right foot all the quicker.
Step behind with left foot(like a lady horse stance in motion) and perform the counterclockwise twist to throw P( Shoulders must be properly spaced to get the proper leverage).
P:Just as F does the turn P’s right hand pushes the body to pull left hand out in the nick of time.
Right foot forward right hook punch to back of F’s neck.
F: duck
P: In connection with prevoius right hook, deliver left hook to front of F’s face.
F: two handed catch and elbow break. And the set continues as normal
Note:
If you haven’t done such a throw before it takes some practice to get the proper leverage.
2.I started from the groin strike for explanation purposes. It is generally not a good opening move, but after people are a little tied together and very close. The way it is presented in the form is a perfect example.
Actually the “bridge hand” in hung ga is a bit different.The fingers are spread as if holding an egg while in wah lum the fingers are bent back and together.A friend of mine’s who studied hung ga showed me the difference.
The chut sing ma can also be sued to step into the opponent if he/she is backing away.
There is more than one style of Hung Gar (Canton, Ha Say Fu, etc.). I too studied Hung Gar and the ku sow hand formation is identical to WL’s. The application/usage is the same as well (except that HG also uses the ku sow in dynamic tension strength building sequences-I didn’t see that usage in WL). Again, not wanting any controversy, only stating my opinion. Any one else have any comments?
Flem-
The slap of the forearm/fa jing is not for the judges, it’s for yourself (although it doesn’t hurt with the judges:D)
It is a way to self-check your power usage. To really get a good, crisp smack, you must use “bursting power” (fajing). No, you don’t have to smack the forearm in practical applications, but the inventors of the forms were extremely wise in developing a way to teach the proper technique (with proper blocking hand position) with a tool to provide feedback to the practicioner regarding if he or she is doing it correctly. Plum Flower PM uses the same concept when striking with the vertical blade hand (opening moves of Mei Hua Hand for one example).
As to the issue that 18 Elders thought that Master Chan was holding back, maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe Master Chan simply chooses not to emphasize certain things, which is different from purposfully holding back. Either way, before anyone is motivated to find a solution to a problem, they must first realize that a problem exists. If the current WL students ask for the apps, maybe they’ll get them! I know that I wished that I had asked-
and no, I’m not a Pong Lai (so cut me some slack when you reply!)
jack squat
i agree with what you said. i do not blieve in asking to be taught. as a teacher, i tend not to teach something if i am asked. i am sure there are reasons , as you say. it is funny that i said i was taught applications by master chan and yet no one ever asked what i was shown. i think the majority of the people here just want gossip, or a place to complain.
When slapping the arm in Mantis Gong Fu, the emphasis is not so much on slapping the arm, but , it`s all about the waist movement! Everything comes from waist.
Sa Mantis
When doing 7* stance, is your hooking foot turned in 45 degrees? This is a great leg conditioning stance/drill. It both conditions the shin area and the calf muscle,for those who have been exposed to Mantis conditioning.
Joe Mantis
Here-Here! One MUST be taught how to work/do two person exercises/forms! In our school our Shrfu goes to the cutting edge, might start slow but that doesn`t last long. We do not dance at our school, I know the techs. of the Lingchun side, but when your partner is going all out, there is no time for thought.
Flem
I believe you should learn to fight by fighting, but its your Shrfus responsibility to teach you the Techs. in the exercises and forms to apply to battle. I take it you are a Mantis Stylist, if you are you are already ahead of the game. Again, why isnt any one in WL teaching applications? Keep an eye on 18 old ladies I think he missed a treatment today.
18 Elders
WL pugilists are clueless to the (run around) and get behind you. They just have not been taught Two person. Dont hold it against them, they just cant comprehend. This because they havent been taught the whole system. You have to hand it to them, they are trying, just like we did, but because we asked questions/Techs. people turned their backs on us. I might not ask this fellow MA but does the WL branch in O town expect to ever get it? I mean real Mantis Applications, without guessing. Believe me there are many hidden treasures in your forms, you might think you got it but you dont.
Great observation and point regarding the Red Book.
In my experience with WL when I asked a Sifu about understanding more of the system, his reply “what else is there, more forms.”
ouch
A problem exists definately. I think that a lot of individuals who studied WL were deceived into thinking that they were learning more than they were.
It is no shame to say what one teaches or doesn’t teach, ie: a forms school, sparring school etc.
FLEM:
Probably a place to complain and air out the frustration of dedicating oneself to an art and not being taught how to use it.
In the words of Hua Lin “WL is what it is and if people like it fine, if not go study something else.”
I agree what first let’s just be honest about what WL is or isn’t.
Once that is determined then others can make an informed choice of wanting to study this style or not.
Tainan:
THANKS FOR YOUR INSIGHTS!!!
I thoroughly enjoy what you share.
Originally posted by Jack Squat
[B]Northern Mantis-
There is more than one style of Hung Gar (Canton, Ha Say Fu, etc.). I too studied Hung Gar and the ku sow hand formation is identical to WL’s. The application/usage is the same as well (except that HG also uses the ku sow in dynamic tension strength building sequences-I didn’t see that usage in WL). Again, not wanting any controversy, only stating my opinion. Any one else have any comments?
No problem.
By the way way I have only heard of Canton and Ha Say Fu what other ones are there?
Basically, to understand apps. in WL you just take each move ‘out’ of the line of the form, and turn it 45 degrees to the opponent. The forms are a ‘line of communication’, the apps. are best researched by not being so ‘linear’. Should be easy, with or without a Sifu to show you the way. But that does mean spending a little less time blaming others and more taking responsibility for your own progress.
i don’t really get what/why you are saying that to me. as i said before, i was taught application, my time was not wasted. perhaps those who were not should investigate themselves to find out why.
yu shan
as i said above, the applications are being taught, the question is why were you left in the dark?
i think the problem revolves around presentation. and as i tried to explain earlier, how that presentation works into one’s ability to use the information. getting “handed” every app to every move may on the surface lead one to believe that they have stumbled onto the motherload of kung fu, but in reality it teaches a right way and does not teach one to think, and it confines the practitioner to one belief system. if your shrfu is pong lai and i assume this is true, then how is it that your apps have any meaning in relation to WL? he himself said that WL is unrelated to PM and that WL stylists should go to southern forums?
you said you learn the apps, who taught you? I have seen some crazy crap some sifu’s came up with, i wouldn’t call that learning the apps. If you do or did then you would understand tainan’s explanation of little mantis and you would also understand one doesn’t need smoke bombs to change direction on you.
You also wouldn’t think you are hitting 2 people at the end of 16 hands.
When you do gim and you stab your gim fingers project the opposite way, does that mean you are poking some guy in the eyes behind you?
i get it now. you learn kung fu like you read- pick up a few highlights but fail to grasp the entire message.
1st
16 hands- i said that i read on several occassions that a professor law, a praying mantis master of the 60’s i believe, demonstrated the application at the end of 16 hands and HE said it was applied against 3(three) opponents. i was inquiring if someone else knew of this as (I) did not understand how it was done- apparently it must be incorrect since you don’t know it.
2nd
gim- why do you continually ask half-assed questions about random techniques instead of answering the question on the forms i mention( all the while accusing ME of not answering your questions). i never said anything about gim or any other weapons- but if you want to have a multiple opponent discussion concerning weapons you will lose. by the way, i do not think that your mentioned technique is {necessarally) striking 2 opponents, however, since i am not confined to your way of thinking such an application may save my life one day.
3rd
application- i became actively involved in this forum the day you said that WL did not teach applications. my response to you was that i learned apps directly from master chan.
summary
16 hands move against 3(three) opponents was a past master of kung fu’s application. i have suggested that some moves in forms are designed to be applied against multiple opponents( but not necessarilly those that you come back with). finally, i learned applications directly from master chan(not for little mantis)
oh, and i missed another inaccuracy in your comprehesion of my posts - i did not say i had a problem with change of direction, what i did say was that you are not going to get behind me, that is unless i am doing your 2 person set with you or of course you have a smoke bomb
Hola mi amigo!
As for being left in the dark, my WL Shrfus did the best they could. The problem is the good stuff (tired of apps.) is not being handed down. I was and will always be respectful, but, there should be an exchange of energy.I have a feeling the American branch of WL did not incorporate or just plain didt learn Mantis,Apps.two person etc etc etc. As for being spoon fed the wonderful applications of Mantis Gong Fu, I still have to give hours of thought(meditation) because Praying Mantis is a very complexed system, not for dummies. God knows I need to think! I dont think WL is unrelated to a “past” influence of Mantis, just that the American version has dropped the ball so to speak. Yet it is still an awesome style. But Pong Lai is kind of correct,maybe because of all of the southern influence, WLmers should check out southern folks. Remember, P. Chan spent alot time in HK.
Northern Mantis
We did"dynamic tension strength work" in WL. Mostly as a breathing/warm-up. Often wondered about this, I to have a lil Hung Gar historia. What do you think about the beginning of 18 Elbows and 5th form? Also, single finger is southen, but, still a good mix anyway.
Spiralstair
You need to be taught the Lingchun side to your forms.
18 Elders
Here Here! Ive seen some real funky stuff for apps. in WL. We had good teachers,its just they had to revert to past style`s to come up with stuff. Too many grey areas.
Your cynical way of"The gem thing" attaking with a thrust while the two fingers poked an eye out was hysterically funny! Lay off the meds.
Although, we know how to get behind the adversary, Quickly! All apart of the Mantis footwork.
Flem
Apunalar! Creo que se quien tu eres, mi amigo! Todo esta bien!
yu shan
don’t get the last post, i’ll get back to you tommorrow on it. i assume since you guys are all that we’ll be seeing the name pong lai at san shou events soon?
saw a master in the 60’s doing the end of 16 hands?
I thought P. Chan was the only wah lum master here in the 60’s. Who and where is he now?
You sais you learned apps from master chan, what about little mantis, you didn’t learn that, why not?
I’m not talking about a move here and there, i’m talking about everything you learn.
Obviously you didn’t since you said you didn’t learn little mantis.
-did you see the pong lai name in san shou at nick’s tournament last year?
i guess we won’t see your name since you are still hiding.
can we change your name to highlight pen? i said the posture in 16 hands was pictured, as in other PM styles have same or similar posture AS 16 hands- if you look above, the person’s name was PROFESSOR LAW. i believe that he taught in china, not the u.s.
a move here a move there- i was taught the apps of 18elbows, 3rd, among others. please don’t read into what i say, in fact you will better understand what is said by reading and understanding the entire post instead of picking out key words, taking offense, and trying to find fault in it.
as for learning apps for everything i learned, nope, that did not happen, never implied that it did. what i did say was that by seeing what i was shown, the implications of the other material took on new meaning to me.
since you have learned every application in your current style, why don’t you describe the six or was it five uses of tong long deil sow? no, how about it’s most lethal use? i know it, shouldn’t you?
i did not see the pong lai name at that san shou event.
i do not feel that i have taken any unecessary stabs, as you say at 18elders. his posts on the otherhand seem to try to find fault in what i say by ignoring the examples i use and infusing his own unrelated techniques.
let me say this again since you are new here. i am perhaps the last person who should defend WL, but the remark that compelled me to reply, and the one’s that keep me here are the unfounded truth that WL does not teach apps. i don’t know if you were in WL as long as 18elders, but if you were, and you weren’t getting what you were after, then something is not right. perhaps the same thing will happen in ten years where you are now. i mean, during that ten or so years, did you guys think that the secret would just reveal itself, or were you waiting to be taken behind the locked door and shown the great revelation? it seems to me that if the two of you thought you taking it in the keester that before the 10 year mark you’d be sore enough to leave.
