Push hands - what are the ins-n-outs?

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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[QUOTE=omarthefish;1037909]Well that is a fairer comparison. If you think of boxing, randori or even pure shuai jiao wrestling also as “begginer stage” then I can work with that as it seems like you consider only full freestyle sparring or actual fighting to be advanced.[/QUOTE]

It takes a lot of courage to move beyond your comfortable area. There is a voice that keep telling you, “You are fine just stay, no need to move on.” There is always another voice that keep telling you, “If you stay, you will regret the day when you die”. Not willing to change is always human’s weakness. On the other hand, the excitement of changing will always make you feel young and alive.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1037933]It takes a lot of courage to move beyond your comfortable area. There is a voice that keep telling you, “You are fine just stay, no need to move on.” There is always another voice that keep telling you, “If you stay, you will regret the day when you die”. Not willing to change is always human’s weakness. On the other hand, the excitement of changing will always make you feel young and alive.[/QUOTE]
That’s a really interesting reply because it says much more about your own personality than about the relative merits of the argument.

Everyone out there has their own personal preference for change vs. stability. For some people “the excitement of change” may make them feel young and alive but for others it just makes them nervous and fearful. Some people thrive on change and others thrive more on stability. My wife hates to order anything at a restaurant that we have had before. She always wants to try something new. OTOH, I when I discover a dish I really like, I order the same thing every time for a long time. I’m just so happy to find something I really enjoy.

You may regret it if you stay. Some other people may regret not having gone deeper into that same place. I’ll give you an example:

I left Hung Gar after 8 years under one of the top teachers in the whole United States. Sometimes I really regret it. If I had stayed with Hung Gar, I would be a teacher already by now. It would have been 18 years already and I could have learned pretty much the whole style and be much closer to my lifelong dream of living as a professional kung fu teacher.

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My exposure to Chen Taiji was limited, only a few years on and off and it was because I was adding some things to my aresenal and the Taiji sifu was a friend of a friend and wanted some of his guys to get some “real world” application for their taiji.
The push hands I was exposed to was very much “clinch wrestling” but because of the limited scope they were accustomed too it was very easy, in the beginning, to take them out of their comfort zone and that highly specific “sensitvity” fell through.
Of course, with a few minor changes ( and a couple of major ones), they were able to adapt very well.
That is the case with the vast majority of “sensitivity training” like push hands and sticky hands.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1037957]My exposure to Chen Taiji was limited, only a few years on and off and it was because I was adding some things to my aresenal and the Taiji sifu was a friend of a friend and wanted some of his guys to get some “real world” application for their taiji.
The push hands I was exposed to was very much “clinch wrestling” but because of the limited scope they were accustomed too it was very easy, in the beginning, to take them out of their comfort zone and that highly specific “sensitvity” fell through.
Of course, with a few minor changes ( and a couple of major ones), they were able to adapt very well.
That is the case with the vast majority of “sensitivity training” like push hands and sticky hands.[/QUOTE]

yep when i first did clinch fighting it was like, “hey this is fully body sticky hands and they actually let you go to the finish and dont keep resetting you its great!”

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I just finished subtitling this mini-lecture on push hands by one of the all time greats. Wu style Master Wang Peisheng. In the middle there’s a part that I am sure people will wail and gnash their teeth with lots of complaints about well trained students but his skill is very real. At least he doesn’t explain the no touch stuff with qi or magic. He explains that he is leading the persons intent. At times his stuff looks very much like Aikido.

There is surprisingly little information about him online. He was the head of the northern Wu style of Taijiquan and learned Bagua from Ma Gui who was a student of Dong Haichuan. He talks a lot about pressure points and qi but nevertheless, he is one of the guys with a serious rep as a fighter. So take that as you will. Anyways, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRlS3fBR2k0

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lol. push hands has little if any value at all as a method of learning self defense.

To stick with it for years is castrating yourself martially and to enter into competitions for it?

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to a sh1t taichi guy everything is push hands. tai chi is push hands.
one time i asked this guy what “groin punch” app is. “well you first yield his jab, then stick to his arm and make a bridge. this is very important. then pengggggg, luuuuuu, push!!”

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Yeah, it’s like people expect “hide fist under elbow” or “advance step, parry and punch” to be anything but Ji.

To me, Fa Jin and Ji are like drum and drumstick.

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[QUOTE=omarthefish;1038404]I just finished subtitling this mini-lecture on push hands by one of the all time greats. Wu style Master Wang Peisheng. In the middle there’s a part that I am sure people will wail and gnash their teeth with lots of complaints about well trained students but his skill is very real. At least he doesn’t explain the no touch stuff with qi or magic. He explains that he is leading the persons intent. At times his stuff looks very much like Aikido.

There is surprisingly little information about him online. He was the head of the northern Wu style of Taijiquan and learned Bagua from Ma Gui who was a student of Dong Haichuan. He talks a lot about pressure points and qi but nevertheless, he is one of the guys with a serious rep as a fighter. So take that as you will. Anyways, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRlS3fBR2k0[/QUOTE]

Master Wang was a great man. He came to the US in the early 90s and paid a visit to NYC where he met with my teacher Yu Cheng Hsiang and his class. He spent 19 years in prison in China because he represented the Four Olds as a very traditional martial artist and Chinese medical practitioner. That was in the days when Mao wanted to get rid of everyone like him. Before the government decided they could make money from the traditional arts and effectively took them over. Master Wang was a Wu practitioner and the real deal. For people like him and my teacher, push hands is just a means of testing oneself, not an end in itself. His art was lethal up until his death in his 90s.

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[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;1038742]To me, Fa Jin and Ji are like drum and drumstick.[/QUOTE]

can u define both 4 me please…

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Well, Drum is really bad cheap tobacco, and drumsticks are from KFC. What he’s saying is if you don’t chain smoke you can’t have good kung fu, and if you don’t have a KFC every three blocks, you must not be in China, and so your kung fu sucks again.

For $9,800 and some KFC, I know a guy who’ll help you make your kung fu look real nice, though.

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[QUOTE=Mfinn;1040222] His art was lethal up until his death in his 90s.[/QUOTE]
in what capacity was the “lethality” of his art ever demonstrated? did he ever kill anybody using his Wu taiji? and if so, how old was he the last time he used his Wu taiji to off someone?

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[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1040811]in what capacity was the “lethality” of his art ever demonstrated? did he ever kill anybody using his Wu taiji? and if so, how old was he the last time he used his Wu taiji to off someone?[/QUOTE]

dis what im talking about. all the bs hype. lethal my ass.
[QUOTE=Syn7;1040677]can u define both 4 me please…[/QUOTE]

a drumstick is a small baby cow that hasnt opened its eyes yet resembling a purple ripe eggplant

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[QUOTE=Syn7;1040677]can u define both 4 me please…[/QUOTE]

A drum only makes sound when struck; A drumstick only makes sound when striking. One without the other means no sound, no effect. To me, Ji Jin and Fa Jin are connected like drum and drumstick.

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Reviving this thread because I was just introduced to this, to my eye anyways, incredible push hands clip. This is what it’s all about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpce_-nmmp0&feature=player_embedded

You could dial it up a bit if you wanted and add some striking or real throws but you could also just spar. I think that this clip is really exemplary in showing the kind of work it is best designed for which is…fairly abstract. It’s best used as a way to train your body to react and move “according to Taiji principles and techniques”.

The teacher in this clip is just toying with his student and it’s not competitive but it’s not cooperative either. They are having fun. It’s kind of like technical sparring. The student really is trying his damdest to apply stuff and the teacher is applying stuff all the time but then just letting it go because it’s not about winning. If he was a musician, you could say that he was “noodling”. And before anyone gets their nuts in a bunch asking “but can he fight”…yes. Back when he was younger he won one of those full contact South East Asia leitai things where they just wore gardening gloves and a cup. His students box and do randori type drills as well but this clip here should give a good idea of the kind of body method that push hands is trying to develop.

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[QUOTE=omarthefish;1044472]Reviving this thread because I was just introduced to this, to my eye anyways, incredible push hands clip. This is what it’s all about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpce_-nmmp0&feature=player_embedded[/QUOTE]

That is not “what it’s all about” in my eyes. I did not like that push hands clip at all. Also the student seemed to move in a way that indicated cooperation.

As far as “playing around” goes - experimenting, doing semi-semi-serious stuff - here is my friend Richard and our instructor Kevin playing Rou Shou:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGuh42eHMuU

And here is an interesting Wu Tai ji Tui Shou Clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUf1llA3HXg

Those clips are enjoyable to me because the practitioners are exerting a goal-oriented effort. The Peter Ralston stuff had no discernible goal. It did not sit well with me. Minus points for P.R.

Here is what I like to see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft_ZtX9wRdA&feature=related

Of course I prefer it if both competitors are more evenly matched.

In the end I believe Tai Ji’s “non-striking skills” are best trained and expressed under a Shuai Jiao ruleset.

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You should ask Kevin’s opinion about the Ralston clip. I suspect he sees a lot more going on there than you realize.

I have always liked that Wu clip. It’s a good example but not nearly as interesting to me as the Ralston clip. It’s basically Shuai Jiao. It’s very relaxed Shuai Jiao but his partner is not as good, IMO, as the guy struggling with Ralston and they are really just doing Shuai. In the Ralston clip he is cycling between striking, throwing, simple evasion, playing with root. It is, IMHO, far more creative work. Much of the technique Ralston is applying gets missed by his audience because he keeps letting things go. It would be a bit like if the Wu guy kept playing around and setting up throws but then not actually throwing the guy. Sometimes maybe even lifting the guy off the ground, sometimes just ****ing with his balance and then pausing just enough to let the student recover.

The only other place I have seen work like this is in a couple of BJJ clips here and there where I have seen guys rolling just going through set-ups, going for position and then abandoning it just so they could practice getting it again and so on.

The Chen village clip is kind of fun but not particularly high level or anything. Just a fairly competent Chen guy somewhat but not completely outclassing one of the tourists. He’s doing pretty basic stuff. It’s enjoyable to watch but pretty technical. Nothing especially “Taiji” about it.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1037793]I’ve noticed that when people try to grab me or push me that they can’t do it when I punch them in the face real hard.
I also noticed that their ability to “sense” and read me doesn’t work when my fist makes contact with their face.[/QUOTE]
There is such thing called “dead angle” that your hand cannot reach. Without the knowledge of “using the leading arm to jam the back arm”, it will be very stupid for your opponent to grab you in the 1st place.

How will you be able to punch your opponent when your opponent’s right hand grabs on your right upper arm, and his body is moving toward your right (his left)? Your leading right arm is controlled by his right hand. Your back left arm is also “jamed” by your leading right arm. If you try to punch your opponent with your back left hand, all your opponent needs to do is just give you a quick “pulling”.

[QUOTE=omarthefish;1036715]Only grabbing is off limits although you are always welcome to try but that just gets you joint locked in a real painful way. [/QUOTE]
If

  • punch is not allowed in your PH, your counters training for punch will be weak.
  • kick is not allowed in your PH, your counters training for kick will be weak.
  • grab is not allowed in your PH, your counters training for grab will be weak.

To assume that a Taiji master who can apply effective joint locking on a grip fight expert is not very logical assumption IMO.

When your opponent grabs you, he wants you to pay attention on his grabbing and forget about the rest part of his body. If you try to deal with his grabbing, you will fall into his trap because he can release his grip faster than any of your actions. In CMA. it’s called “(ye) - tuck in”. Your opponent’s wrist grabbing is temporary fake move. What your opponent’s want is something else.

The “grip fighting” is missing in Taiji PH just because the grabbing is not allowed. Disallow the grabbing will eliminate many useful hand skill and locking skill training. This will make Taiji guys not familiar with “how to deal with grip”. Same as Taiji PH won’t allow “head lock”, it will eliminate Taiji guys to train “head lock” and many “head lock” counters go with it.

[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;1044760]In the end I believe Tai Ji’s “non-striking skills” are best trained and expressed under a Shuai Jiao ruleset.[/QUOTE]
This put Taiji in a very awkward position. Since most of the leg moves that will be required in a throwing arts such as

Forward kick (TI),
Scooping kick (CUO),
Sticking kick (ZHAN),
Spring (TAN),
Hooking kick (TIAO),
Foot entangling (CHAN),
Inner hook (HE),
Foot picking (JIAN),
Inner kick(CHONG),
Inner heel sweep (GUA),
Inner sickle (DAO)
Break (BIE),
Back kick (LIAO),
Front cut(QIE),
Sickle hooking (XIAO)
Back sickle (GOU),
Back inner hook (LI),
Leg bending lift (KUAI)

are missing in Taiji, it will make Taiji a not very effective throwing art IMO.

Not trying to put down Taiji here. I have trained Taiji since I was 7 years old. I have spent more training time in my Taiji than my SC. But the fact is still the fact even it may not be what we want to hear.

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[QUOTE=omarthefish;1044763]You should ask Kevin’s opinion about the Ralston clip. I suspect he sees a lot more going on there than you realize.[/quote]

Maybe… you could always ask him directly. He may have been my instructor, yet we’re still different people with different ideas.

Much of the technique Ralston is applying gets missed by his audience because he keeps letting things go. It would be a bit like if the Wu guy kept playing around and setting up throws but then not actually throwing the guy.

That’s part of my issue with what’s being shown. If the Wu guys hadn’t followed through, I’d have disliked that clip too. The REASON I think P.R.'s clip looks the way it does is due to the fact that there’s no goal. I would rather have seen him and his student do a fixed step push hands drill that had a defined goal than to just mess around arbitrarily. I still found the student to be very compliant.

The Chen village clip is kind of fun but not particularly high level or anything. Just a fairly competent Chen guy somewhat but not completely outclassing one of the tourists. He’s doing pretty basic stuff. It’s enjoyable to watch but pretty technical. Nothing especially “Taiji” about it.

You and I have different ideas about what TaiJi is, which is cool because there are many flavours of Tai Ji out there. For instance, and in reply to YouKnowWho’s post about Tai Ji not having leg work: There are about 20 trips/throws which can be pulled from the first section of Fu Zhong Wen’s Yang form alone.

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[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;1044808]in reply to YouKnowWho’s post about Tai Ji not having leg work: There are about 20 trips/throws which can be pulled from the first section of Fu Zhong Wen’s Yang form alone.[/QUOTE]

Could you talk a bit more detail on those? What are those? What’s the training methods?

IMO,

  • Peng can be integrated with Scooping kick (CUO).
  • Lu can be integrated with Spring (TAN).
  • Ji can be integrated with Foot picking (JIAN).
  • An can be integrated with Inner hook (HE).
  • Cloud Hands can be integrated with Forward kick (TI).
  • Diagonal Fly can be integrated with Sickle hooking (XIAO).
  • …