[QUOTE=LFJ;1267897]What? 
What is that @1:32? I donât know what you call it if it isnât gaang-sau, but itâs certainly not jam-sau.[/QUOTE]
Looked like gan-sau to me
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1267954]I would tend to agree with that. Although I would also add that whatever Chan Wah Shun was teaching, Ip Man was not authorised in the âpublicâ sense to carry on the school that Chan Wah Shun set up. Ng Jung So was the inheritor and he worked extensively with Chan Wah Shuns son Chan Yiu Min according to what I have read.
I also thought it was âcommon knowledgeâ that Ip Man stripped many of the older traditions away, adjusting what he had been taught and inventing a âNew Methodâ that he alone taught in Hong Kong. So on reflection, maybe NOTHING was added to Chan Wah Shuns original curriculum by his sons or Ng Jung So?!! Maybe it was Ip Man that removed EVERYTHING! And so in looking for an original template of Wing Chun we will always find similarities to other Southern and Shaolin based Systems? Or are we to take the Taost Emei approach to find our answers? Or Yong Chun White Crane??
Each to their own, but at least understand that itâs all simply speculation for nowâŚ[/QUOTE]
Exactly Soencer, enjoy the stories by all maens but it is, as you say, all speculation
[QUOTE=LFJ;1267840]About? âŚ[/QUOTE]
About YKS not having jum sau in their forms. Dr. Chu already showed it does. Also one of the Cheung Bo 12 San Sik in YKS wing chun system is the single sinking bridge or jum sau.
These stories like Leung Bik and so forth cannot be trusted.
[QUOTE=tc101;1268035]About YKS not having jum sau in their forms. Dr. Chu already showed it does.[/QUOTE]
In SNT? All he did was post another clip of SNT and said it had jam-sau and no gaang-sau, but I saw exactly the opposite. Unless youâre calling something else jam-sau, youâll have to point the exact action out to me in the clip.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1268052]In SNT? All he did was post another clip of SNT and said it had jam-sau and no gaang-sau, but I saw exactly the opposite. Unless youâre calling something else jam-sau, youâll have to point the exact action out to me in the clip.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps thatâs what you saw.
In learning the YKS SLT set, I learned it with no Gaang Sau (Gaun Sao), but Jum Sao.
In Rene Ritchieâs book on Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun, his Sifu demonstrates the same set with a Jum Sao, not Gaun Sao.
From what I know and have learned, there is no Gaun Sao.
Dr. Cheung Yung in HK (who learned from Sum Nung, YKSâ disciple), also does not do the Gaun Sao:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0
Hope this helps.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1268065]Perhaps thatâs what you saw.[/quote]
Uh, yeahâŚ
Dr. Cheung Yung in HK (who learned from Sum Nung, YKSâ disciple), also does not do the Gaun Sao:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0
Hope this helps.
Well, no. It doesnât help one bit. You post a clip which shows the exact opposite of what youâre saying it shows.
What exactly are you referring to as âjum saoâ in these clips? What time mark are we looking at? It very clearly shows âgaun saoâ, unless youâve flipped the terminology.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1268119]Uh, yeahâŚ
Well, no. It doesnât help one bit. You post a clip which shows the exact opposite of what youâre saying it shows.
What exactly are you referring to as âjum saoâ in these clips? What time mark are we looking at? It very clearly shows âgaun saoâ, unless youâve flipped the terminology.[/QUOTE]
The jum sau precedes the guan sau.
[QUOTE=tc101;1268128]The jum sau precedes the guan sau.[/QUOTE]
Oh, you mean the one âhe doesnât doâ?
Heâs going so fast he almost looks sloppy. But to me, it looks like Tan/Jum/Tan/Got Gan. He does the Jum Sao quite low so it almost looks like a Gan Sao. The âGot Ganâ or âcutting Ganâ is the hooking action back towards the waist. Maybe they donât consider that to be a true Gan Sao in YKSWCK?
[QUOTE=KPM;1268132]Heâs going so fast he almost looks sloppy. But to me, it looks like Tan/Jum/Tan/Got Gan. He does the Jum Sao quite low so it almost looks like a Gan Sao.[/QUOTE]
Seriously? Thatâs what theyâre calling âjum saoâ? His arm goes down almost straight. AnyhowâŚ
Everyone is familiar with the WSL version, right? It has two clear sections of taan/jam/taan and taan/gaang/taan.
The jam-sau is just a subtle action contracting the elbow. This doesnât appear in either the CWS or YKS lineagesâ SNT form. What they do appears to be the equivalent of the gaang-sau section, whatever they call it.
This jam-sau is what was referred to when Yip Man said he got it from Leung Bik. It clearly didnât come from CWS or YKS.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1268137]Seriously? Thatâs what theyâre calling âjum saoâ? His arm goes down almost straight. AnyhowâŚ
Everyone is familiar with the WSL version, right? It has two clear sections of taan/jam/taan and taan/gaang/taan.
The jam-sau is just a subtle action contracting the elbow. This doesnât appear in either the CWS or YKS lineagesâ SNT form. What they do appears to be the equivalent of the gaang-sau section, whatever they call it.
This jam-sau is what was referred to when Yip Man said he got it from Leung Bik. It clearly didnât come from CWS or YKS.[/QUOTE]
Yes the WSL form makes it very distinct and so does the LT form. In YKS the second half of the SLT form is supposed to be performed as quickly as you can move so speed is emphasized and thus movements blend together and appear less sharp but the action is there. Thatâs how I learned it with a very distinct jum sau flowing into a guan sau. Jum or chum means sinking it is the same character in Chinese. As I told you before the action is also part of our Cheung Bo 12 San Sik and is called the single sinking bridge.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1268137]
This jam-sau is what was referred to when Yip Man said he got it from Leung Bik. It clearly didnât come from CWS or YKS.[/QUOTE]
The story I remember reading was that Yip Man taught the Tan/Jum/Tan version in SNT. Then WSL was in a âBei Moâ and took a low punch when his Jum Sao didnât quite stop it well enough. So he started doing the Tan/Gan/Tan version in his own SNT and Yip Man gave his approval. Prior to that the Gan didnât really show up utnil the dummy form. Tan/Jum/Tan is clearly in YSKWCK, even if you donât agree with how they do their Jum Sao. So I wouldnât put much into this Leung Bik story.
[QUOTE=tc101;1268145]In YKS the second half of the SLT form is supposed to be performed as quickly as you can move so speed is emphasized and thus movements blend together and appear less sharp but the action is there. Thatâs how I learned it with a very distinct jum sau flowing into a guan sau.[/QUOTE]
Okay, but Robert just finished saying they donât do a gaang-sau, and whatever is being called jam-sau is not what I recognize by that term.
[QUOTE=KPM;1268146]The story I remember reading was that Yip Man taught the Tan/Jum/Tan version in SNT. Then WSL was in a âBei Moâ and took a low punch when his Jum Sao didnât quite stop it well enough. So he started doing the Tan/Gan/Tan version in his own SNT and Yip Man gave his approval.[/quote]
Yeah, but of course WSL kept the jam-sau section too, while most others following the event dropped the âoldâ technique for the ânewâ one and only have the gaang-sau section.
Tan/Jum/Tan is clearly in YSKWCK, even if you donât agree with how they do their Jum Sao. So I wouldnât put much into this Leung Bik story.
Itâs not so clear from my perspective. Whatever they call it and however they do it, it is certainly not the same action done in WSLVT.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1268149]Okay, but Robert just finished saying they donât do a gaang-sau, and whatever is being called jam-sau is not what I recognize by that term.[/QUOTE]
As I do YKS wing chun I think I know what it is Iâm doing. YKS as I learned it has both a guan sau and chum or jum sau action. In the SLT the actions are there. In the San Sik it is sometimes taught with a guan sau and sometimes a single sinking bridge.
Iâll just say I learned the YKS SLT set with a Jum Sao, not a Gaun Sao. As for the 1st video I posted, admittedly, the guy is a little sloppy, perhaps causing confusion?
In Cheung Yungâs video, he is doing it from what a Yip Man lineage personâs perspective would be a Jum SaoâŚ
otherwise, I need my reading glasses.
And guys, really? Its not worth arguing over.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1268190]And guys, really? Its not worth arguing over. [/QUOTE]
Well sure, my point was more to do with Leung Bikâs influence on Yip Man than the action itself, but regarding the action, it plays an important role in WSLVT and seems under-appreciated by many others, particularly in the execution of it being a subtle contraction of the elbow in the way we do it. I donât see this in other lineages. Many do it by dropping the wrist which changes everything.
[QUOTE=zuti car;1268142]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfCsuKc0BHs[/QUOTE]
Great! Thatâs how I learned it.
And tc101, I agree in the San Sao.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1268191]Well sure, my point was more to do with Leung Bikâs influence on Yip Man than the action itself, but regarding the action, it plays an important role in WSLVT and seems under-appreciated by many others, particularly in the execution of it being a subtle contraction of the elbow in the way we do it. I donât see this in other lineages. Many do it by dropping the wrist which changes everything.[/QUOTE]
Thatâs all model level stuff and has nothing to do with application.