Power like a tsunami, soft like silk - an interesting experience

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
1

Hello Everyone,

Just came back from seeing my teacher in China. Some of you may be interested in my experience.

I haven’t see my teacher, Wei Shu Ren for a couple of years. Normally everytime I see him, he throws me around in a big open space, and I just “fly” with it and we always had a lot of fun doing it.

However, this time round we were having classes in a relatively small space. Knowing how far Old Man (a respectful way in Chinese to address and older person) normally throws me, when he decided to demonstrate some of the energetics on me I was a bit worried. So I was being most uncoorporative and doing my best NOT to be thrown, for fear of running into walls, chairs, tables and sharp corners.

Old Man asked me to push him, so I pushed him VERY softly so he can’t “borrow” my power. Yet the power that went through me was tremendous. All his throws were done with the lightest physical touch yet I felt I was being hit by a tsunami, with the power coming from around everywhere but not his hands. The contact point at all times, remained soft.

Old Man spun me around a few times, that was good because I just had to keep spinning to dissipate the power.

He did an An, I tried to redirect but the power followed and I had no choice but just to collapse onto the ground. The closest I can describe is that I felt as if I was carrying 500kg bucket of moving water on my shoulders, so I cannot balance and cannot contain the weight, so I had no choice but fall flat on the ground.

Another interesting one Old Man did was a Ji he issued. As I was flying towards a table (I was already a few meters away from him) I did everything I did to root down before I hit it. Yet after I stopped physically I felt as if the power was still going through me. I had to continue to stay rooted and dissipitate for another 2 sec. before the power was completely gone before I could stand up properly. By then I felt sick in my stomach and had difficulty breathing for about 15 sec.

It seems the older and physically weaker Old Man gets, the more powerful he became. I had never felt so much power ever from a person yet the physical touch was so light it was almost imperceivable. I think he was kind of testing me as well to see how much I could handle.

It was most interesting.

Cheers,
John

2

Hi John,

Happy new year mate, how often do you go to visit your sifu?

Love to feel this type of energy, can you do this yet? If so we must catch up!! :slight_smile:

be easy bro
Garry

3

hi there been studying for 20 years never meet any kun fu teachers cant really throw good was wondering what kind of tai chi is the one that your master teaches love to learn some all the kun fu guys here can throw at all i study judo and jiu justu at competion level all the tai chi shi yee pa kua say they can do it but never meet any one that could wish i did i love the internal arts but at the end my judo and jui justu over came them i was no regular guy i won the nationals in both and place in the worlds but always looking for better teaching thanks ps.you did the right thing dont root when your getting hit your get hurt more so do believe the hipe about rooting its good but not rooting is even better when you understand how to use it

4

Ahh the joys of being beaten up by scary old men, that sly smile on there face… the part i find the most unnerving.

Sounds like you had a good time though, hope your well.

We shall have to catch up for some more pushing, slowing starting to get the whole shen-yi-qi deal.

Slowly :smiley:

All the best and Gung Hei Fhat Choi:)

5

Fantastic write up.

This is the kind of stuff which makes me more inclined to acknowledge a difference between “internal” and “external” practices. Usually people just trot out the normal nonsense of relaxation, structure, etc. Stuff that every MA practices and employs.

So what explanations does your teacher give about what this power is and how it is cultivated? Just curious, no need to divulge if you are unable to do so.

Great to hear that this skill has not been lost in the “modern” age.

6

Hello Dr Fung, I enjoyed your post. I practice Yang Imperial also. It seems there aren’t too many of us around, so it’s good to hear from you.

7

The method is simple (so he says!). The key is to be soft, soft, and more soft! Not so much for the purpose of yielding, but so that the muscular tension does not interfere with the true invisible power coming out. I can do enough to influence the opponents balance and so on, but not enough to throw someone purely on this alone.

Old Man also mentioned that during practice, do not move the body, but truely let the energy (e.g. heaven and earth Qi) move your body. Bit hard to explain, but when it happens it is kind of like moving and not moving at the same time. One of his daughter gave the analogy that like you are sitting on a train, and when the train next to your train moves, when you look out your window you cannot tell whether you are moving or if the other train is moving or both moving.

Cheers,
John

8

Thanks for the explanation. I get the first paragraph - it’s what all martial arts, even supposedly “hard” ones, strive for. But I can only relate to this on a personal level in a striking context. I’ve not trained throwing. But your description sounds like what I’ve seen of Aikido.

Your second paragraph just goes totally over my head, it’s purely beyond my comprehension though I recognise the principle of relativity in the analogy. It kind of sounds like how some of the moves are supposed to be performed in the Wing Chun first form: the hands move forward at an imperceptible pace - this is to train the intent (yi). There is another practice where the hand retreats but there is still forward intent.

I’ve probably gone off on a complete tangent … thanks for taking the time to reply.

9

Greetings..

I do not hit you.. the earth hits you.. (my mentor tells me this).. he says he is simply a vehicle for transfering the planets energy.. to the degree we have good alignment and structure, especially rooting, we simply transfer the stability and mass of the earth through our bodies.. Imagine treading water and trying to walk in that water, we go nowhere.. it is our connection to the ground that supplies the support for our movement and power.. equal attention to the application of the hands AND the support of our lower body/earth is essential.. like a compressed spring, we move from our center, expanding or contracting in at least two opposite directions.. optimumly, we expand and contract uniformly in all directions, focusing on the intention of the application.. Think of the hands and arms as the bumper of an automobile, they apply the application with little or no actual force, it is the legs and waist acting like the wheels and engine of the auto that supply the power.. The diminished awareness of an opponents lower body, together with little or no movement of the arms/hands seems like a mystery force when applied correctly, the push seems to of its own nature, not a contrived application..

Sorry for the random nature of my thoughts.. Be well..

10

Power like a tsunami, soft like silk - an interesting experience

Hello John,

I have seen your (excellent!) website and may conclude that your experience with Tai Chi Chuan is extensive. Yet your sifu “played” with you, with you unable to give a proper answer to his Chi.

My question to you is: does this imply that eventually the art is dying out and that excellence and/or superhuman skills will vanish in time? Yang Jian Hou probably did not have the level of skill of his father, his student Wang Yong Chuen did not have 100% the skill of his master, Master Wei Shu Ren ditto etc..

Thank you for your reply.

Francesco

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So could your Taiji generate as much power if you were in an airplane (i.e., where you do not have contact with the earth)? Or would you just transfer the stability and mass of the plane? This may sound like a silly question, but I am thinking of a hypothetical situation in which you were on an airline that terrorists attempted to hijack, and you tried to stop them. Based on what your mentor said, would you not be able to generate as much power because you were not on the earth? I don’t mean any offense, I’m sure the techniques themselves would still take care of the job, but theoretically would they be somewhat less effective? Just throwing out some stuff for discussion…

12

I have often wondered this as well. I am amazed at my Sifu’s skills, but he is equally amazed with his Sifu’s skills. Does something get lost with each generation, no matter how well you teach? Or did people just have more time to train in the “old days”?

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I think the latter is right. Our mass is miniscule compared to a large ship, airplane, Earth, so almost anything is more stable than us and we can “draw power” out of it.

14

Rooting and generating force from the earth does not imply some kind of secret or mysterious energy (chi) transferred from the earth through the individual to the target. Striking and pushing power is generated from a solid base that pushes off the rear foot. The energy from this push moves through the body as a wave or undulating whip-like motion up to the impacting portion of your body (fist or palm).

It is the efficient and effective coordination of the body’s movement in this wave-like manner that generates the force. A well performed strike uses no arm or chest strength; it is all technique. This is what creates the impression that little physical force is manifested. There is very little actual mass behind the impact of a bullwhip; the force is generated by the undulating wave that travels down the length of the whip. This increases the velocity at the tip of the whip causing a forceful yet flexible impact. This same type of force is generated within a properly or efficiently performed strike or push.

When striking efficiently, the force moves from the rear foot through the body like a wave, but the movement takes timing and practice for the body parts to move in the proper sequence and timing to one and other. This takes practice, practice and more practice. It follows the law of F=MA. Force (energy transferred at impact) equals mass, (your weight) times acceleration (how fast you move). This is how a smaller person may generate great force in their strikes.

What one lacks in mass can be compensated for in acceleration and timing. Proper timing occurs when the flow of the body’s energy (using wave-like motion) creates the greatest amount of force possible at the moment of impact or at the moment of maximum force when pushing. A well timed strike or push occurs at the moment when optimal force has been generated, but also at the area of the opponent that possesses the least resistance or the point of greatest vulnerability possible to impact at that time. That is, the area of greatest Yin!

Put another way: Proper timing occurs when the highest possible force is manifested, at the most efficient area of the opponent, at the most opportune time. This force or energy is created by a whip-like or wave-like motion generated by the rear foot pushing off the ground and increased by hip, waist and shoulder rotation occurring in the proper sequence with proper timing to and through the hand. The elbow must also extend according to proper timing, but it is not necessary to throw or push the arm forward as when one is TRYING to strike an opponent.

So, standing on anything that provides proper friction to allow for a solid root or base would provide the same effect as standing upon the earth.

15

Greetings..

Hi Scott: Nice description of the wave! Regarding targeting the opponent, you imply targeting a Yin opening and that seems a little confusing, to me.. I create a Yin condition where my opponent applies force, so.. i typically use my opponent’s Yang resistance as a link or handle to find their center. Then, as they create a Yin yielding, i adhere or stick and follow until they get stuck and recreate the “defensive” Yang as a result of being stuck.. resistance at the stuck position usually results in instability and unbalance. When my opponent applies Yang force to my existing Yin condition, the force falls into emptiness (hopefully a trap).. i assume that the same holds true for my opponent, so i seldom attack the existing Yin condition.. it is empty and has no link to their center..

Mostly, i apply a Yang force where i feel resistance, initiating a reaction.. more Yang resistance or a Yin yielding.. in the event of added Yang resistance i change direction of the application or add a second Yang direction, like throwing water at the opponent, too many options (directions), resulting in a confused response.. usually, as Yang force is applied to my Yin condition i manifest an opposing Yang as my Yin continues to yield.. this is not unlike using the opponents Yang to add to my own Yang intent.. Like when a opponent pushes into my upper torso i rotate leading their force into emptiness on one side (Yin) while adding force in the Yang direction of my rotation, usually 90° to the direction of their Yang.. either i add force and counter-direction as they move into emptiness, or.. as they retreat from the Yin emptiness i add force to their retreat resulting in over-abundant force in their retreating and instability..

I do not suggest a Yang-Yang "double weighted condition, only that we work with the opponent’s substance rather than moving into their insubstantial emptiness.. i cannot apply the elusive “4 ounces” if there is nothing there..

Whew!! I apologize if this doesn’t make sense.. somewhere in my translation from experience to language i can get lost, occasionally..

Be well…

16

Hi TaiChiBob,

I think I understand your description and I like it very much!

I think we may be looking at the same thing from a slightly different angle or perhaps using similar, but different descriptions. I’ll describe myself and you can tell me it this coincides with your meaning.

There are several tactics available. On one occasion I may apply Yang force to elicit a Yang response. On another I may create a Yin vulnerability to invite a Yang response. I prefer not to initiate a determined attack so for me, generally speaking and depending upon the circumstances, my initial Yang action is primarily used for the purpose of inviting a specific response which I will then attempt to exploit.

Depending upon the circumstances I have no problem meeting Yang with greater Yang which from one perspective renders the attacking Yang now Yin since my Yang supersedes the attacking Yang. However, if I choose not to respond with greater Yang, which is mostly the case, and a Yang force is directed towards me, or I meet with a Yang defense, I prefer to not meet the Yang directly, but exploit a Yin or weakness in the attack or a Yin or weakness in the opponents center. I would then attack this weakness (area of Yin) with a relatively Yang force. Relatively Yang here means a force greater than the Yin weakness. This force is considered Yang only relative to the idea of Yin as an emptiness or a vulnerability. This force is Yang because it is an application or addition of energy against weakness, but is not necessarily “forceful” per se. This is because great force is not necessary when attacking a vulnerability of defense or vulnerability of center.

For example, I receive a Yang force and respond by circling myself into accord with the force. By moving with the Yang force I utilize the Yin principle of receptivity and re-direction. In this condition I may lead the force (a Yin action) and then follow through with a push, strike or throw (a relatively Yang action directed at a Yin weakness, i.e. the over-extension of the opponent, or an unprotected area). However, if I perceive a Yin receptivity I may still redirect the receptivity in a manner that allows me to overcome the center with a Yang force thus unbalancing the opponent. In this case I still move to the area of weakness (Yin) that is the area that will unbalance the opponent. If I am unable to unbalance or strike the opponent then I either moved towards an area of strength (Yang) or misapplied or mistimed my attack allowing the opponent to retain their center or apply an effective defense or even perhaps I created a weakness in myself that the opponent exploited.

When speaking of Yin and Yang movements and concepts it is the context in which we use them that determines their meaning. I think we are merely using the terms according to different contexts.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts!

17

Greetings..

Hi Scott: I very much appreciate your comparative analogies regarding Yang/greater Yang and the sublimination of the lesser Yang into a Yin condition.. i guess i may be a bit too simplistic at this level of nuance.. My experiences have been that, usually, applying a “greater Yang” evokes a Yang/Yang struggle.. as you suggest, my Yang against Yang is response oriented.. i am “listening” for a committed Yang direction, a “handle” to work with..

I, generally, don’t associate weaknesses with Yin or Yang.. they are generally misapplications of strategy.. I have been trashed by very powerful Yin situations.. and i’ve found many vulnerabilities in Yang expressions.. Where the opponent’s loss of Peng under my Yang advance creates a Yin condition, it is failure of listening and strategy that puts the opponent at risk.. I look at the physical structure as both Yin and Yang in roughly equal proportions and scrutinize (listen intently) as the opponent seeks to transition upper/lower or left/right or advance/retreat.. the instant of transition is neutral and subject to easy manipulation, even a Yin retreat with a delicate Cai (pluck) will prevail at the instant of the opponent’s transition..

It has been my experience that too much discection of the “wholeness” of the beings is confusing and often leads me into baited situations.. if i simplify my listening and seek the instant of transition into a committed direction, the rest takes care of itself.. as my opponent intends a committed direction they then need to transition the intention into movement.. re-direct their intention before it has momentum, catch it at the transition and it is easy.. Like Lao Tzu said attend to problems when they are small and they never become big..

Be well..

18

Hello TaiChiBob and Scott,

Wow guys, very nicely described :slight_smile:

My teacher says this: “Bi Shi Jiu Xu. Yi Xu Ling Shi.”
which means: “Avoid the (opponent’s) substantial, go through the (opponent’s) insubstantial. Then with the (your choice of) insubstantial lead the (opponent’s) substantial.” I think this is closer to Scott’s description…

When Old Man throws me, what I feel is that he is so light on the contact point that I cannot even yield from the contact. The “insubstantial” point he uses is usually an empty point may be 2 or 3 meters behind me, and the “substantial” point is isually where I’m “physically” such as my back or my rooting foot.

When I do a throw, I also like to keep the point of issuing power as light as I can so the opponent cannot detect it and yield, although some other points may have a little more physical force. I do not throw through points where there are heavier contacts because a well trained opponent can always redirect/yield or even capitalize on those points.

And I’m forever working on reducing my relying on my stance (hence people who do not know me often criticize me on my “lack of well structured stance”). I understand the value of a strong stance, and I do use it sometimes. But I believe if I rely too much on a very physical stance during practice I would end up developing bad habits on relying on too much physical strength. Old Man walks with a walking stick yet solid as a rock, while the late Grandmaster Wang Yong Quen bounced people around while sitting on a wheelchair.

Cheers,
John

19

Hi TaiChiBob,

It seems to me this is a matter of semantics. I do relate the concept of Yin-Yang in a more comprehensive or encompassing sense than most individuals.

It is important to keep in mind that Yin and Yang describe a relationship between phenomena. The Yin or Yang of a phenomenon is not a description of its essence, but a description of its relationship to other phenomenon. Nothing is inherently Yin or inherently Yang, its condition is contingent upon what it is compared too. Therefore, anything, or everything, is always in a state of Yin AND a state of Yang at the same time. Its condition is always contingent upon what it is compared too.

If I have a guarded region of my body it may be considered Yang, if I have a vulnerable region of my body it may be considered Yin; guard is an area of strength and therefore Yang, unguarded or less guarded is an area of vulnerability and therefore Yin (in relation to the guarded area).

Perhaps I choose to observe the relationship between one guarded area and two vulnerable areas. Of the two vulnerable areas one may be a more favorable target for an opponent because it is more vulnerable than the other. That makes the area of greater vulnerability Yin to the Yang of the lesser vulnerability even though they are both Yin in relation to the guarded area. So if I am comparing all three areas, from the perspective of the Yang (guarded area) I have two Yins, a greater Yin and a lesser Yin. We may refer to one of these vulnerabilities as a Yang-Yin and the other as a Yin-Yin. Now, from the perspective of the greater vulnerability Yin-Yin, there are two Yangs a greater Yang we may refer to as Yang-Yang (the guarded area) and a lesser Yang we may refer to as Yin-Yang (the lesser of the two vulnerabilities).

When I am rooted, that is, possessing a physical balance or center, my body as a holistic whole is in a state equilibrium, a condition of Yin-Yang. If I choose a bow stance I may, as a holistic whole, be within my center (Yin-Yang), a balanced equilibrium, but if I observe the relationship between my legs I have a forward leg with the predominance of weight upon it and a rear leg with a minimum of weight upon it. My forward leg is Yang while my rear leg is Yin. However, if my partner pushes against my torso while it is squared towards my Yang leg, the pressure roots my weight upon the rear foot. Since the force is now predominantly directed onto my rear leg, my rear leg becomes Yang in relation to my forward leg. Even though the posture of the two legs has not changed; their relationship to each other has changed due to the addition of an external force.

Now, within any balanced stance there is a state of equilibrium. This area of stability occurs along the line drawn between the two feet. This can be considered the base of a triangle. The region of vulnerability (Yin) of any stance occurs at the apex of any type of imaginary triangle using the base line between the two feet as the base of the triangle.

O
OOO
OOOOOO
OOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOO

<- Line of stability (Foot A)X-------------------------X(Foot B) Line of stability ->

OOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOO
OOOOOO
OOO
O

This is only a general outline of the point I am trying to make. The “O’s” represent regions I will attempt to move my opponent towards in order to unbalance him. Now certainly I may still unbalance him along the line of stability, but that is for another discussion. For our purposes here the line of stability may be considered Yang in relation the numerous positions of the “O’s”, the “O’s” representing vulnerabilities that are Yin.

In order for Yin to defeat Yang it must redirect Yang or draw Yang into over extension. Once Yin has defeated Yang it becomes Yang from the perspective of the whole. That is, the winning (Yang) as opposed to losing (Yin). If my opponent has a vulnerability (Yin) and I apply a force to that vulnerability, then my force is Yang to the vulnerability even though it may also be Yin compared to my opponents overall power!

Remember: All phenomena are both Yin and Yang at the same time! Its apparent or manifested condition at any moment in time depends on its relationship to other phenomena.

20

Greetings..

Scott: Very nicely described, and very accurate as to the relativity of Yin/Yang.. I’m just not quite that analytical :frowning: .. While i understand your explanation conceptually, i don’t have the capacity to apply that many levels of listening and evaluating during the experience itself.. i’ve even tried to cultivate it into an instinctive function and it just over-burdened my ability to have a natural experience.. I know, i"ve been told that i have an unorthodox approach to Taiji interacting energies, but.. i have relatively positive results..

My mentor approached pushing and sparring similarly, he said that if i’m looking for an advantageous situation, i am already too late.. he often said (to the point of becoming a mantra), that “if you’re not standing at the door when it opens, you will only rush to meet its closing”… While we were early in our training we played much with sensing these Yin/Yang interplays, then we were instructed to let it go.. then, i was challenged like never before, he told us we were going to learn to listen to intentions.. i had no idea how profound of a task this would be, both in its demands and its rewards..

During early pushing and sparring training i was in a constant buzz of training my Jin skills.. although i enjoyed the training and prospered relatively well, i never felt the “calm at the center”.. it always seemed like, even though i had some skill at this stuff, my mind was too engaged in the activity.. Sifu’s telling us to let those skills rest and work on understanding the opponent’s intention both simplified the task and intensified it at the same time.. He was adept at presenting one situation while masking his “intention”.. he would exaggerate this situation for our learning process, but slowly he took us deeper and deeper into understanding the changes of sensations as an opponent chose their approach to prevail in a situation. Often, the opponent is seeking an opening and has no real committement.. other times, the opponent has a particular agenda and commits to it.. Even though we can assign labels of Yin/Yang to these intentions, i sense they exist outside that level of categorization, they are only potentials until activated into action.. “Yi leads Qi” which implies that the intention is evident before the action, reading the intention is the ultimate adventage.. the action is countered before it is even apparent, you are “standing at the door when it opens”.. It was, finally, at this point that i could feel the calm as i moved into the “open door”, the outcome had already been decided.. Mind you, this profound situation occurs infrequently and irregularly, for me.. but, i’m working diligently at it.. it fits my nature more than other paths..

Forgive my simplistic approach to this important aspect of our Art, i do agree with and advocate Scott’s well crafted description of Yin and Yang interplay.. i am only approaching it from a different, not contrary, perspective.. (and, it’s probably not all that different :slight_smile: )

Be well..