Philipp Bayer Ving Tsun (explained?)

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

As a few people on the forum have said that they visited PB and were impressed/had a complete re-think regarding their Wing Chun, maybe Kevin or Graham (or anyone else from PB’s line) could write a post, explaining how that first meeting with PB went?

What was it you liked? How did it differ from what you saw/trained before? Does PB teach in a different way, etc?

I think in Kevin’s case he learned originally from Viktor Kan (a direct student of Yip Man). So a comparison would make for really interesting reading.

Graham has also said that he learned Wing Chun from a different line/lineage before meeting with PB, so maybe he too has an interesting story to tell.

For me, I would like to try and put their thinking into some sort of context, and it ought to be possible to explain things (at least in a basic way) through writing (yes, I know there is no substitute for real, hands-on experience).

My personal experience is perhaps a little similar to Graham’s and Kevin’s. I experienced Wing Tsun in Eastern Europe, and later experienced WT from various West European countries - and realized that what I see coming from Eastern Europe and Hong Kong (and in some cases from the US too), fits better with me/makes more sense to me/is more of an eye opener, than the WT from Western Europe (today).

I have no particular interest in learning PB’s VT as I am happy learning what I learn in Wing Tsun, but I would like to visit PB if I ever have the chance - just for the fun of seeing it/feeling it first hand. But as that isn’t possible at the moment, maybe Kevin and Graham could talk about their experience?

Both Kevin and Graham are prolific posters on this forum, so maybe it would help those of us who are not learning the WSLPB method. Maybe :wink:

Any takers?

2

Dude

I admire you honesty in asking that question but if you look back through the posts myself and Kevin (and others) have made regarding WSLPBVT you will see that we are generally attacked from most corners. We are happy with that as unlike those others we have experienced it all first hand where as nobody else has. Those that have made the trip have not been disappointed. A few from this very forum have made it and also other WSLVT websites.

It is not possible to write an essay on the subject. All it will do is encourage the Ving Tsun police to jump on every word to try and discredit it. If you want to know you have to go. Have an exchange with Philipp and sit around the dinner table and have a discussion then things will become clear.

Then it is up to you to make a judgement but it will be based on hard facts rather than internet banter.

The European Association is full of people from Wing Tsun be it KK or LT. I have talked with a lot of them. I have watched video footage of things that go on inside that WT organization and it is shocking stuff…my opinion of course.

PB has had top level practitioners or technicians or what ever they call themselves, to go his school from WT and they have been rinsed even by his less experienced students. FACT!

Make the trip or you will just have to carry on fathoming stuff out from all the nonsense that happens within this forum. :wink:

Serious discussions and exchanges can only happen face to face, not on the WWW

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I admire you honesty in asking that question but if you look back through the posts myself and Kevin (and others) have made regarding WSLPBVT you will see that we are generally attacked from most corners. We are happy with that as unlike those others we have experienced it all first hand where as nobody else has. Those that have made the trip have not been disappointed. A few from this very forum have made it and also other WSLVT websites.

Graham, i think youll find its Kevs and yours attack of other lineages combined with the “our stuff is superior” attitude.

It is not possible to write an essay on the subject. All it will do is encourage the Ving Tsun police to jump on every word to try and discredit it. If you want to know you have to go. Have an exchange with Philipp and sit around the dinner table and have a discussion then things will become clear.

Mate, no ones discrediting you or PB, just pulling some smug attitudes in line

Then it is up to you to make a judgement but it will be based on hard facts rather than internet banter.

Great idea

The European Association is full of people from Wing Tsun be it KK or LT. I have talked with a lot of them. I have watched video footage of things that go on inside that WT organization and it is shocking stuff…my opinion of course.

Just like the opinions of the WC police!

PB has had top level practitioners or technicians or what ever they call themselves, to go his school from WT and they have been rinsed even by his less experienced students. FACT!

Good on em.

Make the trip or you will just have to carry on fathoming stuff out from all the nonsense that happens within this forum. :wink:

Serious discussions and exchanges can only happen face to face, not on the WWW

Bit harsh, theres the occasional discussion that has merit

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What GH said.

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Graham, i think youll find its Kevs and yours attack of other lineages combined with the “our stuff is superior” attitude.

True

Mate, no ones discrediting you or PB, just pulling some smug attitudes in line

It must come across like that yes

Great idea

Thanks

Bit harsh, theres the occasional discussion that has merit

Very occasionally but sooner or later pages and pages down it will descend into chaos :slight_smile:

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Very occasionally but sooner or later pages and pages down it will descend into chaos :slight_smile:

Give me the chaos over Hendriks dribble though! :slight_smile:

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In fact as BPWT has no immediate intention to go to PB for a looksy…

SLT - trains the stance and the elbow

Wall Bag - trains elbow control, short punching distances, timing, precision

Dahn Chi Sau - Develop the elbow

Chum Kiu - Develops the, kick, step, pivot, the easiest way for fighting, balance, syncronicity (specifically Bong/Wu - Kwan Sau)

Muk Jong - Improves “shock force”, precision, timing, elbow, balance, cut the way, limits of actions, syncronicity, chum kiu

Bil Jee - How to cut ones losses

Luk Dim Boon Kwan - Improves force, punching power and precision, improved foot speed, timing.

Baat Cham Do - Awareness of danger, Improved foot speed and evasion tactics. How to fight any other weapon (expect firearms)

Poon Sau - force improvement, lat sau jik chung, punching power.

Seung Ma/Toi Ma - Balance, structure, step, alignment, force

Laap Sau - improve the elbow, syncronicity of punch/jut sau, rotation of bong sau, smooth changes, balance, cut the way

Chi Sau/Gor Sau/Sparring - uses all the above.

There you go. Basic thinking. Now you know everything. :smiley:

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1218837]Give me the chaos over Hendriks dribble though! :)[/QUOTE]

I never read anything he writes so I wouldn’t know. Not my thinking.

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1218838]In fact as BPWT has no immediate intention to go to PB for a looksy… There you go. Basic thinking. Now you know everything. :D[/QUOTE]

:smiley: Cool - so I graduate? :slight_smile: Well, I appreciate that you did take the time. The things you list are, of course basic as you say… but they are also all in line with what I am taught in LTWT.

Which is why I figured maybe there’s a way for us all to share info and better understand why the PB guys feel they learn something that has a different take on things. I guess I’ll just have to wait until I can find time to visit PB.

The only problem, is that if I want to visit people there are more than enough people in my lineage I would love to meet - so as skilled as PB surely is, he is lower on my list (for obvious reasons).

[QUOTE=Graham H;1218838]PB has had top level practitioners or technicians or what ever they call themselves, to go his school from WT and they have been rinsed even by his less experienced students. FACT![/QUOTE]

This could certainly be the case. I would say they are surely WT’ers from the EWTO rather than from, say, Hong Kong. I met a highly-ranked WT guy a few years back (a country representative within the EWTO) who, when I asked him if he would like to Chi Sao, said that he hadn’t done Free Chi Sao (Gor Sao) for years. I find that crazy (read: CRAZY!!!).

So if people in the EWTO are schooled by others, they only have themselves to blame. Leung Ting’s system should feature a progression including Free Chi Sau and Free Lat Sao, etc.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to post a reply.

That said, even if you feel you can’t adequately do justice to PB’s teachings (in written form), I’d be interested to hear your personal impressions from the time you visited him. I’m guessing you could write why that lightbulb lit up?

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[QUOTE=BPWT;1218841]… I met a highly-ranked WT guy a few years back (a country representative within the EWTO) who, when I asked him if he would like to Chi Sao, said that he hadn’t done Free Chi Sao (Gor Sao) for years. I find that crazy (read: CRAZY!!!)[/QUOTE]

Not that I can be of any help as my Wing Chun family is UK based and I haven’t met PB before…

BUT when I read your post I honestly thought you meant that the dude hadn’t done Chisau ‘without charging MONEY’ for years!! :smiley:

I found that quite funny until I realized you meant something else entirely…

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1218846]… I honestly thought you meant that the dude hadn’t done Chisau ‘without charging MONEY’ for years!! :D[/QUOTE]

Now that is something that would never happen!!! :eek::D:D:D

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The things you list are, of course basic as you say… but they are also all in line with what I am taught in LTWT.

Oh really? And there’s me thinking that your forms were full up with nonsense fighting applications. I have seen LT guys in Hong Kong. Bizarre stuff.

I guess I’ll just have to wait until I can find time to visit PB.

I probably won’t hold my breath

The only problem, is that if I want to visit people there are more than enough people in my lineage I would love to meet - so as skilled as PB surely is, he is lower on my list (for obvious reasons).

As he was with me…once.

This could certainly be the case. I would say they are surely WT’ers from the EWTO rather than from, say, Hong Kong. I met a highly-ranked WT guy a few years back (a country representative within the EWTO) who, when I asked him if he would like to Chi Sao, said that he hadn’t done Free Chi Sao (Gor Sao) for years. I find that crazy (read: CRAZY!!!).

You think “free chi sau” is Gor sau? :confused: No such thing as free chi sau

So if people in the EWTO are schooled by others, they only have themselves to blame. Leung Ting’s system should feature a progression including Free Chi Sau and Free Lat Sao, etc.

Free Lat Sau :confused:

That said, even if you feel you can’t adequately do justice to PB’s teachings (in written form), I’d be interested to hear your personal impressions from the time you visited him. I’m guessing you could write why that lightbulb lit up?

He basically showed and proved that everything I was doing in Ving Tsun was incorrect so my previous WSLVT, Ip Chun, Ip Ching…etc etc etc was backwards :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1218851]Oh really? And there’s me thinking that your forms were full up with nonsense fighting applications. I have seen LT guys in Hong Kong. Bizarre stuff.[/QUOTE]

Really. The only thing you posted that I had a slight reservation about was the way you described the Biu Tse form. I would agree with that in part, but for us the form has many functions and the ‘cutting one’s losses’ would be just one. Though this is probably true for you too - so I didn’t say anything.

All else that you wrote about the basics is in line with what I am taught. Really. Seriously. :slight_smile: Of course, for us there are applications in the forms too - though nothing is ever really applied ‘as is’. As I said on another thread, I saw a video of WSL teaching a seminar on SNT, and what he was saying and ‘demo’ing’ was very much in line with what Leung Ting teaches.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1218851]I probably won’t hold my breath[/QUOTE]
Okay :frowning:

[QUOTE=Graham H;1218851]You think “free chi sau” is Gor sau? :confused: No such thing as free chi sau. Free Lat Sau :confused:[/QUOTE]

No need to be confused, Graham. Just ask. :slight_smile: In LTWT, Chi Sau is taught in a variety of ways.

Firstly, importance is placed on Chi Sao sections: set two-person drills beginning in poon sao. These teach lots of things, but on the simplest level it teaches you how to react to pressure/force and lines of attack.

Then you typically learn variations to a given section and add to your knowledge of what happens within the section. Then, as the sections contain various cycles, you can play with mixing them up, then you can let go of the sections you’ve been learning and practice freely - training your Chi Sao spontaneously but (one hopes), keeping the ‘lessons learnt’ from the sections.

There is, of course, much more to it. :slight_smile: The sections take what you learn in the forms and what you learn from the forms, and help you understand how you can train it in Chi Sao.

Lat Sau also follows an educational progression, also helping guide you towards free/open/spontaneous work.

[QUOTE=Graham H;1218851] He basically showed and proved that everything I was doing in Ving Tsun was incorrect so my previous WSLVT, Ip Chun, Ip Ching…etc etc etc was backwards :)[/QUOTE]

So now you do your forms in reverse? :smiley:

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[QUOTE=BPWT;1218822]As a few people on the forum have said that they visited PB and were impressed/had a complete re-think regarding their Wing Chun, maybe Kevin or Graham (or anyone else from PB’s line) could write a post, explaining how that first meeting with PB went?..

Any takers?[/QUOTE]

I appreciate why you would be interested, but I am reluctant to make such a post.

First, my personal evolution in Ving Tsun, including transitioning to Phillip’s way, is just that. My personal thing.

Secondly, I wouldn’t want to unnecessarily cause offence to my previous (or other) lineages… That is hard to avoid when this subject arises.

Third, making a post on the virtues of Philipp Bayer on this board is like a red rag to a bull to some. Seems a number of people here would take exception to it…
Post about PB…put on tin helmet,…take cover!

Lastly, I don’t think I could do justice to my first experience with Philipp Bayer in words.

I will say, that for me, it wasn’t all one big wonderful revelation. Oh no. When Philipp explained certain things, I felt like you do when you almost knew the answer, but didn’t.
There was a lot of…“doh!..I should have known that!” or “Of course it is!..Duh!”. :slight_smile:
Yes, it was amazing and enlightening to have Philipp explain the whole system the way he did, and to experience his Ving Tsun first hand for the first time! (which no words could do justice to). But, it was in some ways, a difficult and even upsetting experience, to realise I had been going the wrong way for so long.
The first year after meeting Philipp was very difficult for me and the guys I was teaching.

Another thought…It always strikes me as odd, when people see Philipp as some kind of Ving Tsun commodity…Some seem to feel, they can go and “have a go” with him to see how you like it, or use him to test or measure yourself, or get a piece of him or something?.. Whats in it for Philipp?

If you are genuinely interested in learning what Philipp has to teach, its not difficult to contact him or someone else in the VTKFAE.

15

The only thing you posted that I had a slight reservation about was the way you described the Biu Tse form. I would agree with that in part, but for us the form has many functions and the ‘cutting one’s losses’ would be just one.

What other functions?

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1218838]In fact as BPWT has no immediate intention to go to PB for a looksy…

SLT - trains the stance and the elbow

Wall Bag - trains elbow control, short punching distances, timing, precision

Dahn Chi Sau - Develop the elbow

Chum Kiu - Develops the, kick, step, pivot, the easiest way for fighting, balance, syncronicity (specifically Bong/Wu - Kwan Sau)

Muk Jong - Improves “shock force”, precision, timing, elbow, balance, cut the way, limits of actions, syncronicity, chum kiu

Bil Jee - How to cut ones losses

Luk Dim Boon Kwan - Improves force, punching power and precision, improved foot speed, timing.

Baat Cham Do - Awareness of danger, Improved foot speed and evasion tactics. How to fight any other weapon (expect firearms)

Poon Sau - force improvement, lat sau jik chung, punching power.

Seung Ma/Toi Ma - Balance, structure, step, alignment, force

Laap Sau - improve the elbow, syncronicity of punch/jut sau, rotation of bong sau, smooth changes, balance, cut the way

Chi Sau/Gor Sau/Sparring - uses all the above.

There you go. Basic thinking. Now you know everything. :D[/QUOTE]

Fairly basic and general- does not make PB unique.. it’s the repeated selling of PB by several people on this forum and the put downs that is tiresome and counterproductive.

17

As a vt student it was also how philipp clarified certain aspects of centerline and interception using wu sin aka mindless interaction. Because of certain angles and recycling, we can sustain attacking for the "9 out of 10 seconds " idea. If one keeps hands on the centerline we offer ourselves thinking what side to intercept. That would induce thinking and hesitation.
Another major missing piece for me was the angling to certain positions, using the chi sao as the conditioning response method for right footwork etc. many students falter when charged and make boxers pivots instead of angles with a sustained line of force that enables us to keep making counter angles and striking counters together at the right distances with balance, another idea taken from knives.

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[QUOTE=T_Ray;1218858]I appreciate why you would be interested, but I am reluctant to make such a post. First, my personal evolution in Ving Tsun, including transitioning to Phillip’s way, is just that. My personal thing.

Another thought…It always strikes me as odd, when people see Philipp as some kind of Ving Tsun commodity…Some seem to feel, they can go and “have a go” with him to see how you like it, or use him to test or measure yourself, or get a piece of him or something?.. Whats in it for Philipp?[/QUOTE]

Fair enough - it is indeed a person thing, and a personal art in many ways. But thanks for sharing what you did.

Regarding a commodity - I suppose in some sense all people who teach publicly become this. There is really nothing in it for Philipp, other than sharing (which he can choose to do or not). Myself, I would just be interested to see what he does - nothing to do with using him as a measure or test. Just interesting to see someone who many rate highly.

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Luckily, Philipp does like to share his Ving Tsun! :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1218862]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fairly basic and general- does not make PB unique.. it’s the repeated selling of PB by several people on this forum and the put downs that is tiresome and counterproductive.[/QUOTE]

Joy your air of being able to understand what GH wrote just highlights your arrogant ignorance. It’s been mentioned before by others not just me.