Philipp Bayer Ving Tsun (explained?)

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=Graham H;1218859]What other functions?[/QUOTE]

I’ve never really liked the idea that the BT form is about emergency actions, etc… though some of what is in the form certainly has aspects of this.

In terms of other functions (from a WT perspective):

The BT form has different body methods for getting power into the strikes (compared to SNT and CK methods and functions).

The quality/type of power is different (more whipping power, if that makes sense) - compared to SNT and CK methods/functions.

The tactics used in striking are different (the ‘how’ and the ‘where’), especially in relation to the parts of your arm you are using (compared to SNT and CK methods/functions).

The timing (and to some extent the nature) of the bridging is different, when compared to SNT and CK level material.

And no doubt much more :wink: but this is surely not unique to the WT way of things, and I am sure that your lineage has much of the same. Or perhaps much of a slightly different.

22

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1218865]As a vt student it was also how philipp clarified certain aspects of centerline and interception using wu sin aka mindless interaction. Because of certain angles and recycling, we can sustain attacking for the "9 out of 10 seconds " idea. If one keeps hands on the centerline we offer ourselves thinking what side to intercept. That would induce thinking and hesitation.
Another major missing piece for me was the angling to certain positions, using the chi sao as the conditioning response method for right footwork etc. many students falter when charged and make boxers pivots instead of angles with a sustained line of force that enables us to keep making counter angles and striking counters together at the right distances with balance, another idea taken from knives.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Kevin. :slight_smile: That is what I was hoping for - concrete info that helps me form a somewhat better picture.

23

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1218868]Joy your air of being able to understand what GH wrote just highlights your arrogant ignorance. It’s been mentioned before by others not just me.[/QUOTE]

Your opinions really bother me- not

24

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1218872]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinions really bother me- not[/QUOTE]

Joy, why not ask the guys a question, rather than simply pan what one of the wrote as a response?

:frowning:

Or if you have no interest in PB and what these guys learn, then why post at all?

25

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1218868]Joy your air of being able to understand what GH wrote just highlights your arrogant ignorance. It’s been mentioned before by others not just me.[/QUOTE]

You were a “true believer” in one line-now you are a “true believer” in another line- well known behavioral pathology

26

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1218862]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fairly basic and general- does not make PB unique.. it’s the repeated selling of PB by several people on this forum and the put downs that is tiresome and counterproductive.[/QUOTE]

It was meant to be basic Joy. I knew you would jump on it. The components of which are better explained in more depth in person.

When these components are explained its easy to see where people have gone wrong and why?

27

I’ve never really liked the idea that the BT form is about emergency actions, etc… though some of what is in the form certainly has aspects of this.

I don’t like using the term “emergency actions” either.

In terms of other functions (from a WT perspective):

The BT form has different body methods for getting power into the strikes (compared to SNT and CK methods and functions).

Completely incorrect IMO. So you are saying that up until BJ you cannot get power into strikes or that they are less powerful until you reach this stage? :confused:

The quality/type of power is different (more whipping power, if that makes sense) - compared to SNT and CK methods/functions.

I could not disagree with that more

The tactics used in striking are different (the ‘how’ and the ‘where’), especially in relation to the parts of your arm you are using (compared to SNT and CK methods/functions).

Different? How? Different parts of your arm? :confused:

The timing (and to some extent the nature) of the bridging is different, when compared to SNT and CK level material.

Bridging? Bridging what? You mean making arm contact? Absolute rubbish. Ving Tsun is NOT about making bridges with arms and manipulating them about.

And no doubt much more :wink: but this is surely not unique to the WT way of things, and I am sure that your lineage has much of the same. Or perhaps much of a slightly different.

Your ideas are not unique to WT but couldn’t be further away from what I practice which brings us back to the original point ironically.

28

[QUOTE=T_Ray;1218858]
Yes, it was amazing and enlightening to have Philipp explain the whole system the way he did, and to experience his Ving Tsun first hand for the first time! (which no words could do justice to). But, it was in some ways, a difficult and even upsetting experience, to realise I had been going the wrong way for so long.
[/QUOTE]

Good post T

I was furious as I had come from another “well recognized” system of WSLVT!

Cheated, upset and very disappointed. I could have spent all those hours and heap of money on myself instead of lining the pockets of a charlatan :smiley:

29

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1218868]Joy your air of being able to understand what GH wrote just highlights your arrogant ignorance. It’s been mentioned before by others not just me.[/QUOTE]

Agree! It’s funny that Joy shows classic signs of what he spends all his time accusing us of! :confused:

30

[QUOTE=BPWT;1218873]Joy, why not ask the guys a question, rather than simply pan what one of the wrote as a response?

:frowning:

Or if you have no interest in PB and what these guys learn, then why post at all?[/QUOTE]

Welcome to Joys world !

31

[QUOTE=T_Ray;1218858]I appreciate why you would be interested, but I am reluctant to make such a post.

First, my personal evolution in Ving Tsun, including transitioning to Phillip’s way, is just that. My personal thing.

Secondly, I wouldn’t want to unnecessarily cause offence to my previous (or other) lineages… That is hard to avoid when this subject arises.

Third, making a post on the virtues of Philipp Bayer on this board is like a red rag to a bull to some. Seems a number of people here would take exception to it…
Post about PB…put on tin helmet,…take cover!

Lastly, I don’t think I could do justice to my first experience with Philipp Bayer in words.

I will say, that for me, it wasn’t all one big wonderful revelation. Oh no. When Philipp explained certain things, I felt like you do when you almost knew the answer, but didn’t.
There was a lot of…“doh!..I should have known that!” or “Of course it is!..Duh!”. :slight_smile:
Yes, it was amazing and enlightening to have Philipp explain the whole system the way he did, and to experience his Ving Tsun first hand for the first time! (which no words could do justice to). But, it was in some ways, a difficult and even upsetting experience, to realise I had been going the wrong way for so long.
The first year after meeting Philipp was very difficult for me and the guys I was teaching.

Another thought…It always strikes me as odd, when people see Philipp as some kind of Ving Tsun commodity…Some seem to feel, they can go and “have a go” with him to see how you like it, or use him to test or measure yourself, or get a piece of him or something?.. Whats in it for Philipp?

If you are genuinely interested in learning what Philipp has to teach, its not difficult to contact him or someone else in the VTKFAE.[/QUOTE]

Indeed it is both hard to realize that ones ideas have been errors. But better late than never ; )

32

Indeed! Better late than never. :slight_smile:

33

[QUOTE=Graham H;1218886]Agree! It’s funny that Joy shows classic signs of what he spends all his time accusing us of! :confused:[/QUOTE]

Not really. I spend zero time repeatedly asking any one to come to Tempe or Phoenix!!!

34

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1218905]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really. I spend zero time repeatedly asking any one to come to Tempe or Phoenix!!![/QUOTE]

Joy drop out of the thread, you do this constantly, why even post ? Btw met a 9 yr student of Fong lineage in NYC. Showed him the thinking and he liked it.

35

[QUOTE=T_Ray;1218858]I appreciate why you would be interested, but I am reluctant to make such a post.

First, my personal evolution in Ving Tsun, including transitioning to Phillip’s way, is just that. My personal thing.

Secondly, I wouldn’t want to unnecessarily cause offence to my previous (or other) lineages… That is hard to avoid when this subject arises.

Third, making a post on the virtues of Philipp Bayer on this board is like a red rag to a bull to some. Seems a number of people here would take exception to it…
Post about PB…put on tin helmet,…take cover!

Lastly, I don’t think I could do justice to my first experience with Philipp Bayer in words.

I will say, that for me, it wasn’t all one big wonderful revelation. Oh no. When Philipp explained certain things, I felt like you do when you almost knew the answer, but didn’t.
There was a lot of…“doh!..I should have known that!” or “Of course it is!..Duh!”. :slight_smile:
Yes, it was amazing and enlightening to have Philipp explain the whole system the way he did, and to experience his Ving Tsun first hand for the first time! (which no words could do justice to). But, it was in some ways, a difficult and even upsetting experience, to realise I had been going the wrong way for so long.
The first year after meeting Philipp was very difficult for me and the guys I was teaching.

Another thought…It always strikes me as odd, when people see Philipp as some kind of Ving Tsun commodity…Some seem to feel, they can go and “have a go” with him to see how you like it, or use him to test or measure yourself, or get a piece of him or something?.. Whats in it for Philipp?

If you are genuinely interested in learning what Philipp has to teach, its not difficult to contact him or someone else in the VTKFAE.[/QUOTE]

Actually not a bad writeup. I don’t mean to crucify PB or a lineage.

Just stupidity. :eek:

36

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1218916]Actually not a bad writeup. I don’t mean to crucify PB or a lineage.

good comment.

37

[QUOTE=Graham H;1218882]
Completely incorrect IMO. So you are saying that up until BJ you cannot get power into strikes or that they are less powerful until you reach this stage? :confused:

[/QUOTE]

I would say that early on there is more an emphasis on speedy punching then hard punching as such.

Also in to many WT schools, to many live in fairy land. Coming from the danish branch where fighting/sparring was highly encouraged I was somewhat shocked going abroad sometimes to see how they were trained.

Ofcourse inevatibly the bickering and politics also reached up here so I left the organisation and continued private training.

about 1 year ago I came acros sifu WKL and that was really an eye opener I must say, so now I have started all over in his lineage. I suspect it was much the same feeling Graham et all had when meeting PB :slight_smile:

38

[QUOTE=jesper;1218933]I would say that early on there is more an emphasis on speedy punching then hard punching as such.

Also in to many WT schools, to many live in fairy land. Coming from the danish branch where fighting/sparring was highly encouraged I was somewhat shocked going abroad sometimes to see how they were trained.

Ofcourse inevatibly the bickering and politics also reached up here so I left the organisation and continued private training.

about 1 year ago I came acros sifu WKL and that was really an eye opener I must say, so now I have started all over in his lineage. I suspect it was much the same feeling Graham et all had when meeting PB :)[/QUOTE]

You can see lines of engagement (5 lines of wkl ) I leave wkl thinking alone when he goes into Kung Fu show stopper stuff… Kick me in the testicles stuff ; )

39

yeah the testicle thingy is something I will probably not go into myself :smiley:

40

Ive met WKL and spent a short while in his school with him and his students. He has some crazy ideas but apparently he can fight. Not my cup of tea at all.

I’ll always remember the bizarre 5 minutes when he put a video on of Ip Chun doing Bil Jee and him and his students spent the whole form lauging and poking fun at him :smiley: Crazy stuff. It was quite funny though