Does anyone here study Pan Nam or have any experience with this style? Would you guys please give me some info.
I briefly studied it. Our main style was Hong Kong (Read Ken Chung) style of wing chun. Occasionaly our sigung would visit and teach us the Pan Nam form. I am familiar with all the forms except the weapons. I don’t have much insite into the applications, specifically. Atleast I didn’t see much of a difference from what he was showing us and what Yip Man wing chun was like. It was kind of blured together I guess.
What would you like to know? I might be able to help.
Tom
I was wondering how different it was from Yip Man’s style techniquely and conceptually. How did the forms look like compared to Yip man’s? Was there anything you liked or didn’t like?
It depends what your looking at. At the time I thought it was VERY different as the choreography looked different. However, I have to say that it pretty much is the same. Just depepnds on what level you look at it. Over all, it is similar.
There are some major differences from, what I was taught in wing chun. The horse is more like a traditional southern horse stance except it is much higher. Footwork is more 50/50 instead of 100/0. I see sapects of Hung Gar in there, since Pan Nam studied it for many years prior to wing chun.
To me, Yip Man and/or his teachers stripped a lot out of the art in order to specialize it. Pan Nam’s system has other components in it. Pan Nam, from my perspective, taught a lifetime collection of martial arts. I think he freely added to his wing chun while maintaining the flavor.
Pan Nam was not a stickler for the center line, if we look at the form. At times the hands go off of it, especially in the opening punches.
I think the dummy is very interesting and has some of the best parts in it. I really like it. It has some finger pokes for point hitting as well as limb destruction techniques that Yip Man did not seem to favor. Yip Man took the center line to an extreme. Pan Nam would “chase the hands” if it was warrented. Though he did follow the centerline theory as well.
There are some other differences as well. No Chi Sau like the Yip Man branch. They simply touched hands and tried to feel for weaknesses. They also had a waist pressing drill which is a bit hard to explain, but I never did it. I saw a little on his sons VCD.
Tom
i got the videos for all its worth
i got the pan nam videos. they are very interesting. i feel like the forms are different but they still have all the same “elements” and the same “essence” as the othe wing chun forms i’ve seen.
the way they applied their techniques were a little more compact and even more close range than i’ve seen compared to some yip man wing chun. they had some really interesting ways of applying different angles. they also used some techniques to attack the limbs and then go to the body/head.
the dummy form was really cool, it still had the same “essence” of the yip man form i think. i was really disappointed in the video application wise, they showed only two simple applications for the dummy.
the knives were way different. they looked much more hung gar than wing chun.
over all i think you would get a similar result doing pan nam and yip man wing chun for example in the end, i mean it is all wing chun. i hope that was helpful.
Thanks you guys! You help was great!
Is this helpful?
There is some information and pictures of Pan Nam doing the Wooden Dummy form and some other stuff in the book ‘Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun’ by Leung Ting. I hope you find it helpful.
I tried a combined Yip Man/Pan Nam school while searching for a school I was happy with. I liked the class, the only reason I didn’t stay training with them was due to work commitments and problems traveling to the class. It was interesting, I saw use of clawing that I have not seen in other schools of WC.
I see some people have mentioned a VCD of this style, where can I get a copy?
Marco
Go to eBay and search under “wing chun.” Lots of Pan Nam VCDs there. I purchased the series of Pan Nam books on eBay out of curiosity. The big thing that struck me was the stance. or should I say what looked like the LACK of a stance. The person demonstrating all the forms appeared to simply be standing in an “everyday” posture with feet roughly shoulder width. No sinking or rooting was apparent. Of course I may get a different impression if I get around to purchasing the VCDs.
Given Pan Nam WCK’s history and the choreography of the forms, I get the impression that what we are seeing is primarily Chan Wah Shun’s WCK with some Hung Ga elements added and likely some of Pan Nam’s own additions. I have seen similar elements in Pan Nam, Austin Goh, and Wai Po-Tang’s forms that are not in YMWCK forms, and all three have a CWS lineage influence. Anyone else care to comment?
Keith
A couple notes.
The VCD’s are not that similar to what I was taught. There seems to be a different flavor to them and the techniques are very different from what I was exposed to. I did not get heavily into the techniques, just a little. But they were not like those.
The knife form did indeed look more Hung Garish. I am not to sure which version it is.
Pan Nam had an intersting life living in the home of wing chun and hung gar. Pan Nam’s early life was dedicated to Shaolin/Hung Gar and no doubt influenced what he did in his wing chun to some degree. Later he learned a couple different versions of wing chun. One of which comes from one of Yip Man’s sidai. So he does have some Chan Wah Shun in his lineage. However, his lineage is said to come from Dai Fa Min Kam through a guy called Lok. We don’t know his full name. Lok’s cousin taught one of Pan Nam’s sifus and thus him. This is from memory so it might be a little off. To be honest, I do not now if Pan Nam really modified his style or if it is fully intact. I can see some hung influence so I assume it was a mix. But I think I recall Dai Fa Min Kam being linked to other arts like Weng Chun that also have some Hung like influence. Rene might be able to shed more light on the topic.
Any way, Pan Nam said there were numerous styles that made up wing chun. One of which is said to be eagle claw I think. Hense Pan Nam wing chun does indeed have clawing techniqes. Not many, but they are there. The biggest area you see them in is in the Huen saus. At the end of each one, you close the fist from the pinky to the index finger, one by one.
Pan Nam style may look like it doesn’t have a horse or root. But that is incorrect. He is very rooted. The stance is just different. The body always has to be rooted in just about any martial art. Pan Nam has different theories on this.
Just some thoughts
Tom
Tom sez-
The body always has to be rooted in just about any martial art.
Tom-
I dont know about “always”.
Some northern styles have a floating root.
But whther someone is rooted or not is not always self evident.
An as far as rooting in the dark- the aussies have an advantage:-
a congruence of language and activity.
Rene might be able to shed more light on the topic.
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/biographies/masters/pannam.html
He does primarily Chan Yiu-Min (Yip Man’s sihing) style WCK with some village Hung and Hei Gung integrated in, as well as South-style double knives. He was d@mn impressive with the pole, even in his 80s, moving a 12’ version around powerfully and precisely even at that age.
You guys are saying that Pan Nam has a mostly Hung influenced style(claws,stance,weapons etc…)
Is the chi kung from hung ga?
Is there influence of dai fa min kam in the style?
If there is where do you see it? Does Chi sim weng chun have anything in common with Pan Nam?
Thanks!
Hello.
I am learning Pan Nam Wing Chun. I don’t have much experience with other systems so I can’t really give you a comparison. But..
The things that are mainly stressed are solid stance, toes not pointed in. Power coming from a relaxed waist, legs rooted. Good breathing, and most important sinking shoulders and elbows. Making contact with the fingers and grabbing is used to control and sense the opponents actions.
There are three empty hand sets, and pole set (not really used for fighting, but for developing waist power), and the knives which come from Hong Kuen. There is an additional breathing set which is supposed to complement Wing Chun, but is not actually part of the system.
Hope this helps some.
Hello Grinding hands,
No I am not quite saying that Pan Nam is mostly Hung influenced. What I am saying is that he learned it for many years prior to Wing Chun. His wing chun IS different than many others. I personally can see “SOME” things that are inline with Hung Gar. However, I can not say that that is what it is. It doesn’t have a Hung Flavor at all, just some moves are similar to hung gar.
If you read what I wrote above, it does come from Dai Fa Min Kam, at least that is what Pan Nam said. It comes through a guy named Lok. I am not sure how close to Jee Shim it is, but I would think it is not that close or I suspect others would be telling us it was. But I don’t think it excludes Gee Shim though. The stance work may be close since they both are 50/50.
Pan Nam was in a position to learn from many, many people. He seemed always to be around and knew most of the people in Futsan from the stories I heard. I am not sure how open they were at sharing, but I get the impression that Pan Nam new a lot of different wing chun. I think his style is not a pure art that was taught to him by a single teacher, but a mix of every thing he knew. The forms may or may not be pure. It is hard to say.
Perhaps Morgan can help answer some more questions. Would you mind sharing who your learning with?
Tom
Can I ask you guys how the stepping patern looks like.
I have been reading whatever i can on Dai fa min kam. I know that there are a couple of wing chun styles that acknowlege him as their ancestor.
Is there any caracteristics that distinguishes a Dai fa min kam style from other wing chun branches?
Thank you TParker,Rene,Morgan and everyone else!
Hi,
I am not sure what you mean by the stepping pattern? The foorwork in the forms is almost identical to Yip Man wing chun. Chum Kiu has an unusual stepping motion, but I think I saw something similar in another branch, either GuLoo or TWC. I can’t remember. The Dummy form has a hooking technique at the end of the form as well. But for the most part it is identical except that the horse is higher with the knees out. THis in itself creates a differnce in internal structure, but if your asking pattern, it is the same from my perspective. Perhaps someone with more background would disagree.
Hope that helps. If not, can you clarify?
As far as Dai Fa Min Kam, I am not sure what he knew and what the people that come from his lineage do. I thought I read somewhere that he had a “Weng Chun” back ground. As such, they may have the wider stances. But as I said before, Pan Nam wing chun is very similar in many respects to Yip Man wing chun. I think Rene is correct when he pointed that out his teachings come from Chiu Chow (rather than Chan Yiu-Min, if I remember correctly). But there are differences and I am not sure what accounts for them.
Pan Nam learned from Chu Chow first and was considered his teacher. But much of his information came from Lai Hip Chi. Both come from Chan Wah Shan lineage like Yip Man. So we should not besuprised to see similarities. However, Lai Hip Chi ran into a guy wh apparently knew a different version of wing chun that is claimed to come from Dai Fa Min Kam.THe interesting thing to note is their version of wing chun differs from other wing chun groups and they claim Tan Sau Ng as the source. In any case, Pan Nam learned from these people as well as picked up other stuff. It is hard to say what is Dai Fa Min Kam, what was Wing Chun from Chan Wah Shan, and what was merged from his other teachings is hard to say. I think we need to see this Lok guy that Lai Hip Chi learned from.
Tom
Hi Tom!
You wrote:
Pan Nam learned from Chu Chow first and was considered his teacher. But much of his information came from Lai Hip Chi. Both come from Chan Wah Shan lineage like Yip Man. So we should not besuprised to see similarities. However, Lai Hip Chi ran into a guy wh apparently knew a different version of wing chun that is claimed to come from Dai Fa Min Kam.THe interesting thing to note is their version of wing chun differs from other wing chun groups and they claim Tan Sau Ng as the source. In any case, Pan Nam learned from these people as well as picked up other stuff. It is hard to say what is Dai Fa Min Kam, what was Wing Chun from Chan Wah Shan, and what was merged from his other teachings is hard to say. I think we need to see this Lok guy that Lai Hip Chi learned from.
—I have always been a bit skeptical about the Dai Fa Min Kam portion of the Pan Nam Family tree. One of the early magazine articles stated that Pan Nam had actually studied directly with Kam when Kam was very old and he was very young! This is of course physically impossible, since Kam lived in the Red Boat era. So I have always kind of doubted this “Lok’s nephew” idea. How could they have studied with “Lok’s nephew” and not even know his name? I don’t know much about the Chan Wah Shun method, but the impression I get is that Pan Nam’s WCK is essentially CWSWCK with some Hung Ga elements added in.
Keith
Pan Nam had his WCK hands opened by Cheung Bo, but Cheung was a very rough teacher, apparently, and so Pan chose to continue with Jiu Chao, who was a student of Chan Yiu-Min, and the uncle and teacher of Jiu Wan (who later studied with Yip Man). Pan then met Lai Hip-Chi, who learned from Chan Wah-Shun and, after Chan had his stroke, from Lui Yiu-Chai (who later moved to Vietnam).
We don’t know much about Dai Fa Min Kam’s full career teachings, other than Fung Siu-Ching who learned while Kam was still on the boats, prior to the Qing purge when Wong Wah-Bo & Leung Yee-Tai taught Leung Jan and Wong and Kam taught Fok Bo-Chuen. Wong Wah-Bo apparently knew both Weng Chun and Wing Chun, and different stories mentioned Leung and Kam knowing both as well.
If Lai Hip-Chi’s records are accurate, however, Kam retired to the Lok family village in Jinjue, where he taught Lok Lan-Goon and others. So, its possible if someone ever gets to that village, they can check it out and see what its like. Perhaps, like the Cho, the Lok had family village boxing as well.
Thusfar, however, there doesn’t seem to be anything in Pan Nam’s sets that can’t be explained by his Hung Kuen and Hei Gung background, though perhaps if we ever see Kam’s later teachings in Jinjue, we will see its signatures in Pan’s as well.
Hi Guys,
Great info. Keith, it is indeed hard to judge what is Pan Nam’s and what, if any, came from Dai Fa Min Kam. But becareful of the sources your refering to. I think Micheal Nedderman had the first artical on Pan Nam. I could be wrong. But in any case, I don’t think he is/was in a position to be an autority on Pan Nam wing chun. Many mistakes have been made in regards to Pan Nam wing chun, but that doesn’t mean that they were acurate and represented Pan Nam. I have never heard that there was a direct connection to Dai Fa Min Kam. It was obviously an error of sorts. This doesn’t take away the validity, though there are other questions.
I see some hung influence, but I am not sure that it is as heavily influenced as some suggest. It is hard to say because we don’t really know exactly what Pan Nam was exposed to. One of the VCD shows some hung gar which is remarkably close to what I do in many respects. But I don’t think that accounts for the differences in his wing chun from other Chan Wah Shun. But there could be other stuff as well. Their Hung Gar uses a different stance and is much more powerful. His wing chun doesn’t look like a simple marriage, though perhaps some found its way in.
Perhaps more info will come out in the next few years as people visit China more in the future. It would be great to check out that village as well as check out any other Lai Hip Chi lines and compare the differences.
Tom
Hiy guys,
Sometimes it takes me a while to reply. My Wing Chun Sifu is Pan Siu Cho. I don’t know much about the ancestry at this point (my fault, my chinese is not very good), but a few months ago I asked him who Pan Nam’s WC teachers were. He told me Jiu Chao and Lai Hip Chi.
I’m also not really sure what you meant about stepping patterns either. I think tparker did a good job of explaining.