Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT…FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN.
This is general enough for me to agree with.
[B]
So how much time do you want to devote training in this position?
ANSWER: Only as much time as it takes to “get the techniques down” and not one second longer…[/B]
[Red text enhancement is mine.] “Technique” is one of the least important elements of the Wing Chun I am working to develop. And to the degree that I do need to rely on and resort to “techniques,” successful implementation is dependent on other critical elements of personal development. This may be at the crux of our respective experiences and POVs.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun how often are you going to see a fight begin after the two opponents have first stood directly facing each other square on with their hands/arms touching exactly as you see it done in two-arm chi sao? NEVER!
Inside/Outside, Inside/Inside, Outside/Inside, Outside/Outside… can’t really picture many other possibilities.
As long as it takes can mean a lot of things to different people…here’s an example of what I mean: let’s say during double arm chi sao practice you train your larp (lop) sao grabbing hand technique each time you see or feel your partners arm(s) have crossed over the centerline…he doesn’t try to resist or counter you when you do this enough times so that you get it down FAIRLY WELL…then from a sparring stance and distance you come in and perform the larp sao on his lead hand (now you’re getting just a little closer to REALITY since the starting position is more like what an actual confrontation might entail).
Then your partner practices the same thing. Then you go back to the original chi sao drill and now each time the larp sao is attempted the response is to defend with tan sao…enough times so that each of you gets the tan sao defense down FAIRLY WELL… then go back to the “sparring” type drill from apart I described and this time the emphasis is on the tan sao defense…after this the two of you can take it even one more step closer to reality by agreeing that the larp will be done with such speed and force so as to make it difficult to counter…etc.
Step by step you bring it closer to reality without EXPECTING TO BE ABSOLUTELY PERFECT FIRST…in terms of your execution of the wing chun techniques…you can always go back time and again to try to make your larp and tan (in this example) better by doing chi sao; but at least you’re getting in a closer to reality type training pretty much right from the get-go!
Hi Ultimatewingchun, and thanks for your clarification. Yes, that does sound like a drill and technique oriented approach. In fact used to practice that way myself. It seems much more common than how I train now.
I realize the way I have chosen to practice is not for everyone. There are lots of reasons, otherwise everyone would be rushing to do it, LOL. For me, the changes in my practice have dramatically improved my Wing Chun and performance. Of course improvement is such a relative thing … I really stank before, now I stink less. And as Joy referenced elsewhere, still “… miles to go before I sleep.”
Vive le difference, and may we all find the way to become the best we can be.
Kenwingjutsu sez:
Just to clarify, I’m NOT advocating “just sparring”. This should be clear in my second post.
“Just” sparring only teaches you how to get your @ss whooped.
“Just” forms teaches you how to get your @ss whooped.
Technique practice, (forms/solo drills, partner work/drills) that PROGRESS into sparring (resisting partner), lead you to being able to use your techniques under pressure, and the more you do it, the better you become. Hope that clears it up.
(Depending on meaning of sparring- much that I can agree with)
KWJ also sez:(snipped)
TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT…FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN.
(a generality- insufficiency asa principle))
I believe this should be one of the most important guiding principles for any martial art school, not just wing chun; but as regards overkill on something like chi sao or form practice - how often are you going to see a fight begin after the two opponents have first stood directly facing each other square on with their hands/arms touching exactly as you see it done in two-arm chi sao?
NEVER!
(You apparently misunderstand the nature and purpose of chi sao-IMO anyway. How often do you see someone hanging from a chain- coming after you- never- but the heavy bag can have it’s uses to a boxer. How often do you see a boxers head upside down like a speed bag- bit a speed bag has its uses. How often do you see anyone witha head guard and 16 oz gloves- coming at you on the street. Never- but it has its uses.
GOOD chi sao- not sloppy swimming around or just hitting- is an integral part of wing chun. If you by pass doing lots of it- you are alraedy ina hybrid activity.
again- effectiveness varies with the individuals involved. You can have a bad mmaist, bjjist or a wing chunner))
Hi Liang, I totally agree with you. My Sifu James cama not only takes his fighting applications but the whole system (internal chi movement for explosive power)out of form practice. Cama Sifu is able to take a sequence of techniques or concepts and translate them into a multitude of applications for fighting. He is also able to explain every movement on many different levels i.e. internal/external. Cama Sifu also teaches live two man forms based on each form as well as two man exercises. Chi Sao is also done on Moi Fa poles, with chi gerk, San Sao push hands, blind folded, and free form with body armor. The forms evolve to transmit the loose chi hand which elevates your fighting techniques for live pointing and Fa Ging.