I tend to dismiss the all arts that spend more than half of their instructional time on repetitive movement forms (prearranged dances and katas) in each class.
Wing Chun forms are a moving text book of principles. each class should spend only a small amount of time on them and then should spend the bulk of training on application.
I know guys that do SNT for two hours everyday.
To me thats like reading a recipe for two hours without ever cooking.
What are your thoughts.
I think doing the forms is good, and you can gain lots of benifits from doing them.
What exactly do you mean by:
should spend the bulk of training on application.
Define some applications.
Re: Overkill on Wing Chun Forms Practice.
Originally posted by Ng Mui
[B]I tend to dismiss the all arts that spend more than half of their instructional time on repetitive movement forms (prearranged dances and katas) in each class.
Wing Chun forms are a moving text book of principles. each class should spend only a small amount of time on them and then should spend the bulk of training on application.
I know guys that do SNT for two hours everyday.
To me thats like reading a recipe for two hours without ever cooking.
What are your thoughts. [/B]
I tend to dismiss approaches that dismiss the forms as a superfluous component of training. 
I’m not much of a proponent for prearranged drills or dancing in context of training either. :rolleyes:
To understand the forms as training is to understand something important about both, IMHO.
I have never heard the likes of Yip Man, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Tsui Sheun Tin, or Wong Shun Leung as advocating to rush through the forms or minimize time on them. To the contrary, those who have developed high levels of skill - the ones I know and the ones I’ve heard tell much about from those who knew them - advocate spending as much time on slow, informed, and proper practice of the sets as possible. Good gung fu takes both gung and faat, with no shortchanging on the gung.
Besides that, forms and solo practice may be all that New York CMA’ists are legally permitted to engage in any more. :mad:
That’s a quick and dirty summary of my thoughts, anyhoo.
Regards,
Wing Chun without forms ain’t Wing Chun.
There are other schools (or so I’m told) who spend more than half of a class on chi sao.
Training in an MA has many facets. You need to do a lot of different things, in balance. Not JUST forms, JUST chi sao, JUST predetermined or random drills or JUST sparring.
I tend to dismiss the all arts that spend more than half of their instructional time on repetitive movement forms (prearranged dances and katas) in each class.
You’re talking about individual schools, not arts IMO, at least if you are referring to WC.
“You’re only as fast as you are slow.” - Tiger Mr. Wallbridge
The Qigong aspect of the forms isn’t something to be discounted, imo.
I sometimes run through each form at the speed of slt’s first section. It’s very rewarding, as it helps me give my root a bit of extra attention, feel every little detail, and find new refinements by feeling misalignments and lack of flow.
Speed is often a mask for lack of proper structure. If we can’t manifest our principles accurately along a set path at the speed of a relaxed breath, who are we to expect to manifest our principles accurately, at speed, in an infinitely dynamic universe?
Xiao3 Meng4
Its not the time spend.
But how you choose to spend your time which is important.
at my school we dismiss excessive form training in class for a simple reason: you can do it at home.
class time is for 2+ man drills you can’t practice at home.
but that being said, forms are extremely valuable to your wing chun training. if you can’t do them perfectly - keep working
IMHO you need a balance of Kuen Tao (boxing sets), Chi Sao (Sticking Hands), and San Sao (Free Fighting).
And ideally, with in a given class, the section of Kuen To you work on should relate to the Chi Sao and San Sao, so you learn to deconstruct, examine, and reconstruct, making the skill your own.
To dismiss the importance of the forms is to show ignorance.
Don’t get me wrong though, forms will not teach you to become a fighter. They won’t teach you how to apply the techniques. For that you do need to look away from the forms in such activities as lop sau, chi sau, gor sau, and others.
What the forms teach is everything from the abstract to reality. They teach you simple and complex body mechanics. They ensure you do the techniques correct. They show us the important techniques through repitition. They teach us basic concpets. They teach us balance. They teach us to relax. The keep the art whole. The plant the seeds for conitued growth. There is soooo much they teach.
If they forms were not important, why did Yip Man teach them? Why does TST, arguably the best living wing chun person alive today, advocate them so much? But probably more important to some one who beleives the forms are useless, why do the fighters advocate them?
Do yourself a favor and see what they can offer. If they were useless, they would have been dropped a long time ago.
Tom
Originally posted by TjD
at my school we dismiss excessive form training in class for a simple reason: you can do it at home.
What is “excessive”? While I agree that you can, and definitely should, practice them at home, most students need correction and refinement under the eye of their sifu. Otherwise, you may just be practicing error. What is the point of that??? I’m sure that you’ve heard this before, but it’s not practice that makes perfect, but rather perfect practice that makes perfect. That’s an important distinction, in my opinion.
Having said this I totally agree that 2-person drills are vital to in-class training. It’s something that solo training cannot replace.
I would also say that the earlier you are training, the more forms should be emphasized. For beginners, I don’t think half of the class on SLT is excessive at all. One size does not fit all.
Cheers,
Matrix
P.S. insert your LOL here.
everyone knows that every motion in every form is expressing a practical fighting application. While repeating the form is helpful to ones training, many practitioners lack the knowledge of the application behind the forms. When this is in your mind it shows through in your hands and body. thus making forms take on a whole new meaning, my kwoon devotes one day a week focused on combat applications from forms. all questions are answered and tested through a two man drill. upon learning and reviewing an application I noticed that the energy expressed in certain parts of the form change not just to a harder energy but sometimes a softer one. Also the motions become more exact and realistic.
certain parts of the form change not just to a harder energy but sometimes a softer one
Which parts are hard and which are soft?
Im not speaking about any particular motion. I was stating that the energy usually changes after the application of the motion has been trained and uderstood.
my exact quote was
“I noticed that the energy expressed in certain parts of the form change not just to a harder energy but sometimes a softer one.”
not
“certain parts of the form change not just to a harder energy but sometimes a softer one.”
Originally posted by Matrix
[B] What is “excessive”? While I agree that you can, and definitely should, practice them at home, most students need correction and refinement under the eye of their sifu. Otherwise, you may just be practicing error. What is the point of that??? I’m sure that you’ve heard this before, but it’s not practice that makes perfect, but rather perfect practice that makes perfect. That’s an important distinction, in my opinion.
Having said this I totally agree that 2-person drills are vital to in-class training. It’s something that solo training cannot replace.
I would also say that the earlier you are training, the more forms should be emphasized. For beginners, I don’t think half of the class on SLT is excessive at all. One size does not fit all.
Cheers,
Matrix
P.S. insert your LOL here. [/B]
excessive is simple. if your sitting in a corner only doing forms, you’ve wasted gas by driving to the school. if you do your forms to warm up, thats fine. if you do your forms a few times to practice so you can get sifu to look at them, thats fine.
altho my school does seem to have a nasty habit of making beginners do siu lim tau and not much else for a month… sometimes shorter, sometimes longer - it depends how much they practice. a certain level of skill is required before beginners can get really into it
Forms practice is one more tool to train WC. Some WC families don’t have the SLT/SNT - Chum Kiu - Bui Jee. What ever the training methodology you follow balance is the key.
I have heard it said that the forms are empty. I tend to keep that in mind when discussing the “importance” of forms.
-David
Totally agree with you Desert. I have noticed that many wing chun guys run through the form as if doing a dance. there is no emphasis on the actual purpose behind the motion performed.
But it sure looks pretty.
“should spend the bulk of training on application.”
i COULDN’T AGREE MORE
Seriously…
KWJ,
At what point do you feel a student should start sparring? Do you think that there is a place for forms, or are they a mainly a waste of time? Are there basic skills that a student should learn before sparring, or is it more of a “throw them into the deep end of the pool, and see if they can swim” approach? Just curious.
Matrix
At what point do you feel a student should start sparring? Do you think that there is a place for forms, or are they a mainly a waste of time? Are there basic skills that a student should learn before sparring, or is it more of a “throw them into the deep end of the pool, and see if they can swim” approach? Just curious.
If your inquriy is indeed serious, then here’s my serious reply.
I feel a student should begin “application sparring” as soon as they begin studying wing chun. More on this later
Yes there is absolutely a place for forms and they are not a waste of time. They do teach you the body positons you need to perform techniques correctly. But…and this is the big but…if all your time is spent on forms and not on learning where they fit into real conflict, then it is a waste of time.
I would never advocate throwing a student in to spar without a ccareful progression. Which brings me to my first point on “aplication sparring”. The greatest gift in Wing Tsun/Chun, is the gift of being shown EXACTLY how to use what you’re learning in the forms, in Chi-sao, and in two man drills.
My ideal class would go like this:
Begin with forms practice, several times depending on what level the student/s are at. break the form into “sections” and show each students the applications in the movements of the forms. Applications to “real” attacks.
Then Students practice solo basics. Footwork, punches kicks hand positions etc.
Then Students, practice those applications and basics with a partner. then, the partner starts to give them “real” energy,…so now the student is using those basic movements to “really” defend themselves form their partners attacks…in an isolated format.
Then Chi-sao…then the “applications” of the movements in chi-sao…students get to “see” how it applies for “real”.
Then Lat-Sao. (I realize not all WC branches do Lat sao, but IMO its the greatest tool for bridging chi-sao into realistic applicaton).
After Lat Sao, then Students perfom “aggresive Lot sao”. Commited attacks, with commited defenses…using good form and structure. Level of intensity is based on student level. Isolate techniques used. Progressing carefully.
As students get more comfortable bringing the techniques from the forms at the beginign of class to “isolated sparring” [Lot Sao], then they IMMEDIATELY see the application of the forms and chi-sao and how they can apply it as soon as they learn it. The lot-sao can then progress into isolated sparring (Using one goal or one “tool” or one attack/defense, or a combination of a couple of attackes/response. Keeping it spontaneous, is what makes it isolated sparring. Adding more “tools” & responses as students progress.
The “aggresive Lat Sao” and the isolated sparring are…well,…“applicaition sparring”. The goals can be flexible, but in the end it becomes spontaneous. This is how I’d end the class.
So in ONE class, you’ve done forms, solo work, partner drills, Chi-sao Lot sao and Isolated (or integrated) sparring.
I would recommend this for EVERY class.