Overkill on Wing Chun Forms Practice.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Yes, my questions were serious.

You say..“But…and this is the big but…if all your time is spent on forms and not on learning where they fit into real conflict, then it is a waste of time.” I couldn’t agree more. Forms are a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves, IMO. If your goal is to look good by posing in the mirror, then take up bodybuilding.

For the most part, I agree with everything you’ve said. I would probably start beginners off a little slower, nailing down the basics before moving on in the progression, but beyond that I don’t see anything that we don’t do.

Thanks for your time, and detailed response.

Matrix

22

i totally agree

ng mui, i totally agree with your statement. forms help you learn techniques. they don’t help you learn to apply them naturally. I would say the same thing about chi sau. there needs to be more than just chi sau and forms. wing chun is rich in drills.

23

fau kiu

It seems as if this thread were started indicting kwoons or individuals that spend all day training forms and nothing else. I have yet to witness such a kwoon or person. Most people on this forum readily admit to not having enough time to train do to other committments or priorities which is perfectly understandable. So to suggest that we as a whole are placing too much emphasis on the forms and not enough on application is somewhat misleading IMHO. SLT/SNT is the foundation in which your wing chun is based on when practicing your wing chun and starting at the beginning and working your way all the way through to wherever you are at in your particular stage of training could never be a bad thing. I believe if you are having problems with your forms you most likely are having trouble with your application. At the same time if you are having trouble with your application you are most likely having trouble with your forms. Solution keep practicing your forms.

24

“At the same time if you are having trouble with your application you are most likely having trouble with your forms. Solution keep practicing your forms.”

Or better yet, if you are having problems with applicaitons, keep practicing your applications against a resisting partner…

25

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Or better yet, if you are having problems with applicaitons, keep practicing your applications against a resisting partner…

Solely training against someone resisting wont necessarily reinforce good wing chun habits though. Perfect practice makes perfect, need to know what to train.

26

Solely training against someone resisting wont necessarily reinforce good wing chun habits though.

Uh,…yes it will. It will force you to develop good habits against someone who’s resisting. The more you practice, the better you get. There’s no such thing as “perfect practice”…unless your partner is giving you no resistance then you can be as ‘perfect’ as you want.

27

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Uh,…yes it will. It will force you to develop good habits against someone who’s resisting. The more you practice, the better you get. There’s no such thing as “perfect practice”…unless your partner is giving you no resistance then you can be as ‘perfect’ as you want.

We want to train good wing chun habits however. You need more than just “this worked against someone who’s resisting” to develop those. Perfect practice isn’t about being perfect, it’s about making the practice perfect. Asking questions and making choices to improve your wing chun, learning is a progression. Resistance is very important, I’m not disagreeing. But it’s only half of the equation, and not always appropriate.

28

burnsypoo wrote:

Solely training against someone resisting wont necessarily reinforce good wing chun habits though. Perfect practice makes perfect, need to know what to train. EB

KenWingJitsu wrote:

Uh,…yes it will. It will force you to develop good habits against someone who’s resisting. The more you practice, the better you get. K

I think you’re both correct. From my perspective, the “forms” are more than a catalogue of techniques and they do more than “teach you the body positons you need to perform techniques correctly.” They permit us to focus on and develop the various component parts of our method, and then to progressively combine, link or, mix these with other component parts of our method. For example, in the SNT/SLT the YJKYM is – and should teach one – the fundamental body mechanics for receiving and generating WCK-type of power. This is combined with various bridge-hands that rely on this body-structure and power, which are then used in concert with the four body-methods, and certain specific bridge-mechanics for an overall effect. The idea is not to just learn the forms, but use the forms to learn. TN

Yet forms alone won’t give us the feedback we need to develop these things and make them functional. Application does. Application begins with drills (san sao, chi sao, lop sao, etc.), and the drills should get progressively more and more alive (adding more resistance, more variables, etc.). And then we need to take these things and apply them in a fighting situtation. Each step of our application education will inform our form practice, and our form practice will, in turn, inform our application. TN

IME it is not possible for someone to pick up all of this via strict application, as application involves a great many other variables which makes it difficult to isolate certain aspects (to train them) and difficult to reproduce consistently (repetition is the key). TN

Terence

29

Sparring in and of itself, like drills, forms, chi sao, etc. won’t make you any better or worse. It could re-enforce bad habits as your struggle to “win” rather than improve, or it could force you to make better habits.

What makes the difference, IMHO, is correction, both self and sifu. Whether it be sparring, drills, forms, or chi sao, you need to conciously work to make every movement better than the one before, and when you make a mistake, you need to stop, review, correct, train into reflex, and then implement the training (and return to step 1 if you can’t). In the beginning, you’ll need a lot of expert guidence to do this properly (pride can be the enemy), but as time goes on, the WCK system can auto-correct if you invest in it.

30

quote:

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Uh,…yes it will. It will force you to develop good habits against someone who’s resisting. The more you practice, the better you get. There’s no such thing as “perfect practice”…unless your partner is giving you no resistance then you can be as ‘perfect’ as you want.

Burnsypoo Wrote:
[B]We want to train good wing chun habits however. You need more than just “this worked against someone who’s resisting” to develop those. Perfect practice isn’t about being perfect, it’s about making the practice perfect. Asking questions and making choices to improve your wing chun, learning is a progression. Resistance is very important, I’m not disagreeing. But it’s only half of the equation, and not always appropriate.

Originally posted by reneritchie
Sparring in and of itself, like drills, forms, chi sao, etc. won’t make you any better or worse. It could re-enforce bad habits as your struggle to “win” rather than improve …
[/B]

I was getting ready to post, but then I read these and found no need to. But I did anyway. Good points Rene and Burnsy!

-David

31

Hi all,

In my opinion, self-criticism is the most important attribute for a wing chun practitioner. With it, you won’t develop “bad habits”.

32

Just to clarify, I’m NOT advocating “just sparring”. This should be clear in my second post.
“Just” sparring only teaches you how to get your @ss whooped.

“Just” forms teaches you how to get your @ss whooped.

Technique practice, (forms/solo drills, partner work/drills) that PROGRESS into sparring (resisting partner), lead you to being able to use your techniques under pressure, and the more you do it, the better you become. Hope that clears it up.

33

KenWingJitsu, I’m with you.

Terence

34

A good technique/application should not allow the opponent the opportunity to “resist”…If he can, the technique needs some work on.

You should also be able to defend without “resisting” or struggling.If you have to,you need to work on it too.

This comes from precision and relaxation,not some “Rocky Balboa” type of training.The forms are a big part of our training but they must be complemented by a lot of two men drills if they want to be understood as foundations of our system.

Vigourous chi sau when you only throw good strong shots with good lines and forget about the futile slaps is a must too.
Just my two poor canadian cents! :rolleyes:

35

KWJ makes an interesting point about an ideal class-

I use a similar teaching progression (unsurprising as we have several of the same teachers), but would mention a pretty important bridge that requires particular attention- isolation of body mechanics. In moving from form to free application, I think a period of discrete non-competetive work and instruction on the mechanics to be used, and their relation to the core mechanics of Wing Chun is pretty much necessary. The strategies of this art work very well- one can easily see the ‘Wing Chun’ the Belfort victory over Silva a few years back- but it is first the mechanics and then the sensitivity derived from those mechanics which truely make our art special. While pressure is very good and will teach you to apply, I am of the opinion that if you work at a speed/pressure level such that you are unable to feel your own mechanics or the other person’s force, all you’re doing is flailing, and the practice will build little skill.

After free application, particularily with people who are still trying to grasp the basic body usage of Wing Chun, I think it’s useful to return to more cooperative practice, to clean up the mistakes uncovered within free application.

FWIW,

Andrew

36

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
“Just” sparring only teaches you how to get your @ss whooped.“Just” forms teaches you how to get your @ss whooped. …Hope that clears it up.

It does for me. Thanks.
Matrix

37

Overkill on Forms

In my opinion, if you’re spending more than about 15 minutes per class on form practice you’re “swimming on dry land”. There are too many other things to be done , skills to be refined, various drills , chi sao, sparring , etc. to be engaged in if you truly want to prepare yourself for what an actual confrontation might entail.

Similarly, I believe that more than about 20 minutes or so of chi sao in any one class presents the same drawbacks as I mentioned about forms; and to take it a step further, taking the various moves that come from the forms and chi sao OUT and working on the APPLICATIONS of those moves in an actual combat situation is something that gets sacrificed when too much time is actually spent on the forms or the chi sao itself.

38

From my perspective, the forms or chi sau can never be practiced too much, and I would distinctly not advocate minimizing time or emphasis on these. However, I agree that it is entirely possible and generally the case that too little time will be spent on anything or even everything … forms, chi sau, application analysis and practice, gor sau, sparring/fighting*, etc..

*[Terms applied loosely and dangerously.]

Time is the single most important and constraining resource for all of us. Therefore, and I think most of us will agree, appropriate balance is of highest consideration. However, “splitting the time evenly” or in some fixed proportions may not provide the optimum balance, and immediate needs do not remain constant. IMHO, without minimally “enough” time in the sets and chi sau on an ongoing basis, the remainder of work will never fulfill its potential and may even supplant the essence of Wing Chun with something unnecessarily superficial. I also believe that the optimal proportion of time on forms vs. chi sau vs. other activities will vary throughout the stages of a given practitioner’s development.

From my own personal experience, application work continuously informs me where my errors are, where my skills are weakest, and why I need much, much more time in the forms and chi sau work. It is an iterative and integrated process. Forms training and chi sau are my primary training vehicles, not merely "reference dictionaries,” supplemental exercises, or time wasted going through some motions. They are the meat and potatoes of my Wing Chun. These are where my Wing Chun capabilities are built; to forgo or foreshorten time spent in forms and chi sau is for me to be pennywise and pound foolish, and ultimately cheats me of excellence in the application realm.

If we look at those who excelled before us, and also at those who failed to meet their potential, what patterns can we observe? Our data sets and perspectives on this will of course differ. My own teacher has been an avid Wing Chun practitioner for over 40 years, and even he still learns and improves through daily practice of the sets and chi sau. I think it is fair to say that most who touch his hands would agree he does okay.

Of course my perspective is colored by the view of Wing Chun as a lifetime process of deep development rather than a quick fix.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
39

MORE ON OVERKILL

TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT…FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN.

I believe this should be one of the most important guiding principles for any martial art school, not just wing chun; but as regards overkill on something like chi sao or form practice - how often are you going to see a fight begin after the two opponents have first stood directly facing each other square on with their hands/arms touching exactly as you see it done in two-arm chi sao?
NEVER!

So how much time do you want to devote training in this position?

ANSWER: Only as much time as it takes to “get the techniques down” and not one second longer…because you have to devote a MUCH LONGER PERIOD OF TIME translating those techniques (from the forms, chi sao. the wooden dummy,etc.) into a more realistic application in terms of what could happen in a real fight.

40

Re: MORE ON OVERKILL

Hi Victor,

Here are my opinions for what they’re worth…

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
So how much time do you want to devote training in this position?

ANSWER: Only as much time as it takes to “get the techniques down” and not one second longer…

For some of us, I know for me at least, it takes quite a bit of time and bitter gung-fu to even get one technique down. I don’t even dare say that I have any technique “down”. So the fact that I still try to spend time on my forms (still not nearly enough though) shouldn’t be so out of the ordinary.

because you have to devote a MUCH LONGER PERIOD OF TIME translating those techniques (from the forms, chi sao. the wooden dummy,etc.) into a more realistic application in terms of what could happen in a real fight.

I think there is more than one way to look at this. If my technique doesn’t readily work from my set, one way to look at it is that I have to translate it to a more “realistic” application of it. Another way to look at it is that I haven’t trained my technique good enough to the point where I can use it effectively. I’m a fairly lazy person, so I would love to attribute the fact that my techniques don’t work to the form’s unrealistic applicability. Then there’s less reason for me to do the forms and I can do sparring and chi sao all day long, which happens to be a lot more fun.

Unfortunately, my instructor is able to use techniques and principles straight from the forms. And the funny thing is, the more his application mirrors the forms, the more effective they are. There’s no mistaking his Wing Chun for kickboxing. So I am faced with the fact that my forms are not up to snuff after all and I have to spend more time and hard work workinging on them.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang