if you saw someone perform and there moves had no power their stances were weak. but they’re like “aw man im the best in my school, sifu says im great” would you jsut be like
1.) yeah okay? and leave
or
2.) you suck, your school sucks
I have had this happen to me and i was just respectful and like “yeah that was a nice form, or not bad not bad.”
what would you do?
You could tell him this…
“A student is a direct reflection of a teachers knowledge and skill, and you reflect your teacher well”
well said. a lot fo these people i meet are proud nof their styles. which is good, i totally believe for it. but their forms are no good. is this becoming a growing trend. jsut learning the moves to walk through them. it doesnt seem people want to take the time to learn things the right way anymore.
Most people do not perform forms correctly because they do not know them well enough. If you are constantly thinking “next move” then you cannot concentrate on power and delivery.
Are you using “forms” to mean “performance of any aspect of their art”?
Or are you assuming that their skill at forms will reflect their skill at other aspects of their art? (I don’t think it’s ridiculous to do that, but it’s entirely likely that a bad forms proponent could be a good fighter. Whether that makes them good or bad at kung fu overall is up to you.)
And one teacher in particular I know that has learned fast in a style and did not get it right and is doing it for the money (he’s very greedy). Oh yeah, he is also a grandmaster now:confused:
Im a grandmaster.
And what will you accomplish?
If a person comes to you stating that they are not happy with their level and wish to improve, you have been given an invitation to offer advice, instruction, opinion, etc…
If they have just performed, they have asked you nothing.
Being polite cost you nothing.
Telling the person what you HONESTLY thought of their performance, unquestioned, will only lead you to make an enemy unless the person was abo****ely awsome.
It is good manners to applaud or thank them or the demo… ore even smile…whatever…in public or to them. What you think is another story.
Case in point. A few years ago while judging at a competition, a competitor came up and did a broadsword form. He had ZERO basics. Each of us judging had to hide our mouths and work at it to NOT laugh. But…about 1/3 through his routine, he did what was supposed to be wrap the head/hide the sword…But he did it like twirling a lasso over his head…and was holding onto only the end of the broadsword. At that time, we all began looking for where to jump if he lost the weapon.
When we met to discuss how LOW to score him, it was decided that one of the judges would have to explain the reason for the score. One was chosen. That judge then told the competitor “Son, you are horrible and you need to find a new teacher…” In one sentence, he alienated one competitor, all of that competitor’s friends, classmates, the instructor…and made sure that even though his words were true, they would be ignored…
Would it have hurt to have shown one basic and said you need to work on things like this…and let it go at that…
There is a definite art to minding one’s tongue.
Originally posted by apoweyn
[B]Are you using “forms” to mean “performance of any aspect of their art”?
Or are you assuming that their skill at forms will reflect their skill at other aspects of their art? (I don’t think it’s ridiculous to do that, but it’s entirely likely that a bad forms proponent could be a good fighter.) [/B]
Ap, the purpose of forms is to teach and transmit technique. You can argue all day long about whether or not it is the most efficient way to do so, but that doesn’t negate the purpose. Generally speaking, people here are fond of saying you fight like you train. Well, if you train by doing forms, but you do them plss poor, then you shouldn’t really expect to win very many fights using your kung fu. You might be able to fight and win anyway, but if that’s the case, perhaps you shouldn’t waste so much time doing kung fu forms.
Personally speaking, I am a better fighter now than I was before I started training. As forms are a big part of my training regiment, I must conclude they have helped me become a better fighter. Did they make me the best, strongest, undefeatable World Champion of no holds barred bar room brawls? Probably not, but that’s not my intention anyway. Could they make me so? I dunno. Maybe in my next life, I will train hard enough to find out.
Ive been in this situation and I found the best thing for me to do was to demostrate a form or some other skill for them in return…if they are wanting some form of criticism. You should be able to tell by their reaction if they are impressed with you or not. If they seem genuinely impressed then by all means tell them what you think of their abilities, but it should be done in more of a “this will help you get better” type of way…rather than a “this sucks” kinda way.
Originally posted by MasterKiller
[B] Ap, the purpose of forms is to teach and transmit technique. You can argue all day long about whether or not it is the most efficient way to do so, but that doesn’t negate the purpose. Generally speaking, people here are fond of saying you fight like you train. Well, if you train by doing forms, but you do them plss poor, then you shouldn’t really expect to win very many fights using your kung fu. You might be able to fight and win anyway, but if that’s the case, perhaps you shouldn’t waste so much time doing kung fu forms.
Personally speaking, I am a better fighter now than I was before I started training. As forms are a big part of my training regiment, I must conclude they have helped me become a better fighter. Did they make me the best, strongest, undefeatable World Champion of no holds barred bar room brawls? Probably not, but that’s not my intention anyway. [/B]
Easy there, tiger. I was just looking for a frame of reference.
I practiced forms diligently for about 12 years. So while I’m not the second coming, I do actually know what their intended use is.
In my experience, though, forms or even form itself (how coordinated a person looks as they move) isn’t necessarily an accurate gauge of overall skill. Look at the kickboxer Don Wilson. He looks like he’s recovering from a three-day bender when he fights. And yet people keep falling down around him as a result.
Given that the original post had something to do with making assessments based on form, it seemed like a valid question.
Stuart B.
Easy there, tiger. I was just looking for a frame of reference.
That was a “royal” you, meaning general practitioner, not you specifically. I wasn’t making any personal assessments. Sorry if it came off that way.
Originally posted by MasterKiller
That was “royal” you, meaning general practitioner, not you specifically. I wasn’t making any personal assessments. Sorry if it came off that way.
No worries. It’s just that I’ve very pointedly never dismissed forms as a training method.
Well, we were dancing for this production.. one of the dancers learns a southern style from his father…
Anyhow, he decided to do a straight sword form for his “finale,” well needless to say, his sword form sucked. He comes off beeming.. thinking that he just did the coolest thing since sliced bread. He was congradulated by a group of his friends, put the sword away, then came over to ask what I thought. I was a bit too much on the truthful side, so he dismissed what I said, because he was the SH!T to his friends (that don’t know any MA), etc.
Things wrong with his form, lets see
Drawing the sword around his neck like it was a broadsword, letting the sword edge touch himself (x9 min) etc…
There was a lot of basic things missing.
Usually at a demo or whatever, I’ll just clap, nod, and if asked say that was pretty good, or not bad, not bad.
It was just this sort of ego trip that this guy was embarking on kind of ****ed me off.
when said person said his shifu said he was one fo the best… was his shifu refering to his effort in learning practising or his skill?
There are several people I train with whose forms are not good depite training for quite soemtime. one guy in particular trains very hard, but is still not good. He knows he is not good, but everyone has a lot of itme for him due to the time and practise and effort he puts in.
another guy has some very bad cordinaiton problems (unsure of the medical name for it), his ‘interpretations’ of the forms are, how shall I put it, unique, but he has none the less made progress.
There is one girl inparticular in class who I was tell for years to come…2 years ago she had her first lesson and she is naturally gifted, forms and techniques are fantastic. At the recent koushu world championships in brazil she got 3 golds and 1 silver.
Some people are natuals some are not, look at the whole class and see. If they are all s**t then obvisouly there is a deep lack of basics.
Constructive comments are alwaysgood, but if you are only watching / training for the first time / visiting the class it may seem arrogant!
I’m blessed / cursed with being good at most things with practise, and exceptional at none!
I guess in the same situation I would thank him / her for the demostration and possibly point out a one or two small things only in the hu,belest way possible.
There is another kung-fu style who train in the same venue as us…some soft of mantis style from indonesia…I would say there are traditional, but they can fighy, and I mean really fight, using the kung-fu techniques they learn, actually from stance. they are NOT one of these ‘I train kung-fu but fight kick-boxing schools’. I’m very impressed by them.
Taomonkey put it best I feel!
“A student is a direct reflection of a teachers knowledge and skill, and you reflect your teacher well”
So I hope this helps you out!
I suck at forms play but you should see me drink beer.
Ever notice how virtually everyone agrees that 95% of all traditional schools are crap, but NOBODY ever admits to being in that 5%? Don’t judge… your skill may suck also…
students are not always a good mirror of their teacher…
if someone is naturally crap at kung-fu no matter how hard he trains (and there are lots of them / us!), then its not a fair reflection of the teacher.
I think the best reflection is to see someone train / demostrate, and then see them do it again 6 months - 1 year down the line. even if they are truely underpance at what they do…you shuld still see the imporvment.
Originally posted by norther practitioner
[B]Well, we were dancing for this production.. one of the dancers learns a southern style from his father…
Anyhow, he decided to do a straight sword form for his “finale,” well needless to say, his sword form sucked. He comes off beeming.. thinking that he just did the coolest thing since sliced bread. He was congradulated by a group of his friends, put the sword away, then came over to ask what I thought. I was a bit too much on the truthful side, so he dismissed what I said, because he was the SH!T to his friends (that don’t know any MA), etc.
Things wrong with his form, lets see
Drawing the sword around his neck like it was a broadsword, letting the sword edge touch himself (x9 min) etc…
There was a lot of basic things missing.
Usually at a demo or whatever, I’ll just clap, nod, and if asked say that was pretty good, or not bad, not bad.
It was just this sort of ego trip that this guy was embarking on kind of ****ed me off. [/B]
Just don’t tell me this guy was shaolin-do.
I suck at 95% of my forms anyway.