This is inspired by the other thread. So as not to clutter that thread. I started this one.
Years back. A TKD champ came to my bro’s Kuo Shu Guan and said that all we did were useless on the street. Everyone should go to his school. He is teaching the real self defense and very useful in the street.
So what do you say to your students about the street?
Ummm .. TKD don’t guard the groin. Real fights they might hit the groin. Therefore, don’t listen to TKD. ???
Sorry, got nothing better. TKD better not be talking about the street.
So I asked this TKD friend for a cup of tea.
I congratulated him for his achievements and starting a new TKD school.
I told him that I will tell you three stories. And you only have to listen and no need to reply anything.
The story of Yamato and Musashi battleships. There were built as sister ships with heavy armor and bigger guns. They would shell any other ships at the time out of the horizon. You know what happened to them. They were discovered by the US planes and submarines. They were sunk by bombs and torpedoes from the planes and subs. They did not fire their guns on any enemy ships. Because there were none nearby.
The Great Walls of China. The Qing entered because a Ming general opened the gate for them.
The French margino defense line. They were impenetrable fortress and fortified gun positions. And yet the motorized German army bypassed it via the nearby forests. They also used paratroopers to enter/land into the fortress.
He thought for a while and left.
The meaning behind the stories is that:
On the street, the bad guys will use weapon, and more people. They are interested in taking your money and run.
They will not stay and box with you or tumble on the ground with you.
So all the ringside experiences and dojo lessons may not be useful or easily applied in the streets.
end of rant.
TKD with big kicks totally leaves their groin open for attack. Therefore they lose.
I demonstrate to people who ask “what about the street”.
The method used varies depending oin teh situation.
But I will demonstrate how a knife is used by someone in a more realistic way. They learn quickly that a knife attack is fast and furious unless it’s of teh detente variety in which case, they have an opportunity to find a hole and escape.
I will also demonstrate at how quickly a person can enter their space and compromise any posiion of strength they had etc etc.
Other methods as well, but not much in teh way of conmparitive story telling. People will hear stories selectively to hear their own strengths and their own positive attributes within them. They must be shown their failure outright before they can start to make correction to it.
Tales and intellectualization take away from actual experience. When people walk away knowing that for sure they will never be able to decide and predetermine an outcome, it will help them focus on the task at hand which is to increase awareness and to build upon ones ability.
I would say “Watch me beat this punkazzbeeatch TKd guy down!”
Seriously! Who lets a guy from another style or another school walk into thier place and say that?
a couple of years ago, a friend and I were trying out various materials from our respected studies on each other.
a guy walks up and says that’s all dance etc etc.
we invited him to play with us. He was an exponent of wrestling. He walked away with a different perspective on traditional martial arts.
we didn’t hurt him, we dmonstrated that what we were doing was as effective as what he thought was the only effective thing.
so, another naysayer convinced…
Good point.
I was too tired yesterday from work. Did not finish the line of thinking.
What we train for is determined by the setting or assumed scenarios. Any fight is a random event. The setting or condition that we train for may not exist. The battleships were designed to battle other ships which are the strongpoints. The opponent will avoid the strong points and strike the weakest link. So the US approached the boats with planes and subs.
Ming Walls were built and reinforced or made widened from North Korea all the way to Gobi desert. The Qing bought off or persuaded a Ming general to let them in.
German bypassed the defense line altogether.
We dun know what is really like in an acutal fight. We may practice and drill some techniques and “play” fights all we want. Nothing is going to get us “ready”.
If we think we have more practices and more experiences in the ring, therefore, we are more ready for the street. This may not be true.
I tell them: Look both ways before crossing.
You seem to have the moral of the story as “we can not ever be truly prepared”
or as you say "Nothing is going to get us “ready” ".
I see a very different moral here though…
to me this says “brute force will not defeat clever strategy”
know only yourself and you will win half your battles,
know only your enemy and you will win half your battles,
know yourself and know your enemy and you will not be
defeated in a thousand battles.
I’m paraphrasing, but you get the idea.
what do I tell students about defense “on the street”?
First I tell them to avoid conflict whenever possible, because the outcome is always uncertain.
Then I tell them if they have to fight to use only the most effective technique they have and to get away as quickly as possible.
The best attacks are to the knees, groin, and eyes… also to the top of the foot.
in most situations an attackers weakest point of defense will be their lower extremities, and disabling these will prevent the attacker from giving chase.
a large number of the early self-defense techniques we teach include these stomping to the foot and kicking to the knee techniques.
everything changes when attacked with a weapon.
however, there is some evidence that, for the majority of people, carrying a weapon for self-defense increases the risk to themself when attacked. a weapon is not a replacement for the knowledge of how to defend oneself, it is only a tool and one that can easily be turned against oneself.
always remember that the first line of defense is awareness of one’s environment and potential threats.
train in the school like your training to save you life.
My Sensei told me many years ago that the average person in the street hasnt thrown a punch since thier last fight. You threw 1,000 yesterday. Who’s punch should be better?
If you train in the school differently then you train to protect you will always have the disadvantage and false sense of security.
Realize that in the street its block or evade, retailiate and finish as quickly as possible.
there is not time for much else, situations will always occur. friends, weapons, police, falling in glass, into a curb etc etc. You must be familiar with these situations or you will more than likely be on the loosing side, hospialization or death.
I grew up in the streets and bounced for many years and have seen many things, some scarry fights have arose sometimes with me in them other times watching.
Dont pratice high kicks in the school if you dont plan to use them in a fight, which would be ridiculous anyway… But I’ m trying to convey a point
Realize that in the street its block or evade, retailiate and finish as quickly as possible.
That’s the ticket. Most of the time your style will matter very little and it’ll be basics that save your ass. I’ve had friends with no fight experience defend themselves succesfully against a robber and I know people who were fighters get the crap beat out of them and robbed. I even know of a TKD guy who defended himself and survived. If you think self defense is just about the physical part then you stand a good chance to be a victim. If the guy attacking you is smart he is doing so because he believes he can take you, has a plan for doing so and is mentally at least one step ahead of you. Thinking you will do better on the street because of your style is nonsense, unless of course your style fosters a survival mindset for when things are going against you.
Good point.
I tell them that I am a sport grappler, and that the only way to become a good streetfighter is to go fight in the street, if you want to be that dumb.
Yes.
We used to say that the street is like the tiger mouth (Hu Kou), poison snake and wild beast.
We have to “watch” where we are going.
Observation first.
LMAO, that’s what I was gonna put! :D…
and I’ve got a bit of a vaguely relevant story for that…
My mate trained loads of MA, but predominantly karate, and one day some guy he gets into grief with drives his car at him. He only tries to block doesn’t he?! Plastic kneecap, permanent metal splint in his arm, broken ribs, painkillers and many
years later he says to me… “Shoulda used kungfu or aikido… at least they get you outta the way!”.
True story. He was lucky to be alive, the car was doing 65-70 according to the pigs who watched the whole thing.
He was an exponent of wrestling. He walked away with a different perspective on traditional martial arts.
Wait, wait. I want to be the first person to say this 
Clearly, this guy wasn’t proficient in wrestling because…
Well, my master has instilled in me that martial arts are for kill or be killed, so none of the training I receive is geared towards competition. If I can change my game a bit and have fun in the ring, that’s just a side benefit.
With my students, we kind of do both. I show them that if you shoot on me and I get your head like that on the street I’m cranking it, and if I can’t, I’ll at least knee your head. Or drop a blow onto the base of the spine/neck. Then I show that in competition you can’t do that, so you might want to hold position but get your feet back and drop your weight to smother the guy … but he aint finished, and you’re still going to have to play from there.
In the street, it’s usually a bigger guy or more guys messing with you, so it’s a matter of shielding an attack or two while finding a chance to escape. But the reality also is sometimes you can’t escape, and you have to let it all out. You can’t rely on the other guys compasion, because he may have none.
This is fight spirit, and the hardest to train. I have two students equal in knowledge but one can pull the trigger and the other can’t. I try to start him off in a bad position to force him to fight out, and that works, but if it starts equal he never lets it all out.
Frustrating for me. I haven’t found a way to get it out of him. I want to take him fishing so he’ll have to club a few fish and understand you have to do it with full intent otherwise the fish suffer. In fighting, you have to end it as fast as possible to save yourself pain, but also the other guy too.
Ray can I ask you a question? dont think I’m being a smart aliek but in this statement… This is fight spirit, and the hardest to train.
however htis totaly contradicts what you stated on the other thread
According to you this can be learned in a year or less???
This is my point it goes way beyond the physical… to train long enough to save you life in combat no matter how hard you train takes more then 3, 1 hour classes a week for 24 months to be4 proficient. however you said you can teach your students how to block proficiently in a couple weeks… nonsense