[QUOTE=Oso;744414]ok…check. that’s why I say the hammer is dependant on positioning than the others…it’s moving in a vertical way and needs a more horizontally oriented target. I still don’t generally talk about hitting the face with it…base of neck and collarbone against a standing opponent.
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not necessarily. a typical hammer is vertical. In my tang soo do days, we used something called a bottom fist - it was a horizontal hammer fist. great for striking the neck, cheek, etc.
the bolo I was referring to is diagonal - along the same path a diagonal elbow would be, or for FMA purposes, an angle one strike.
We are seeing that in the MMA realm that the open hand is prevailing in the initial confrontations. You have alot more versatility with open handed strikes and grabs than you do with a fist. The fist seems to be a finishing move anyway in the MMA realm. In the street fighting realm the fists seem to be the strike of choice,however i think it is the whole point behind most of the CMA in this world that the palm overcomes the fist(hence the Shaolin Bow). As for me personally, In Xingyi you have a relaxed opened hand and you also use fists for those crushing blows to the body(vital points etc etc). I find that in sparring my hands are open most of the time but my fingers are in close(i learned early on that a careless open hand can lead to jammed and even cracked fingers.)
SO i say Empty Hand prevails because it has more versatility whereas the fist can do only one thing.
[QUOTE=Oso;744340]curious. was there an ‘illegal’ target for them? they are illegal in pro/am boxing these days aren’t they?
‘choppers’ is also interesting in that the most common CMA term for any hammer type strike is ‘pi’ or ‘chopping’ whether it’s a fist or a palm type ‘judo chop!’ :D[/QUOTE]
like I mentioned above, it’s an FMA #1 strike. Ceferino Garcia (The guy credited with inventing the punch) patterned it after the way he used his machette to chop down shrubs and such.
it had tremendous power and was very fast, resulting in many KOs. Garcia has over 100 wins on his record, though I don’t know how many of his 67 KOs were from his bolo. He did use it to KO an opponent and win the title belt though.
it was also called a bolo. fillipino boxers were notorious for them.
Seven,
Thats not technically the traditional bolo punch.
As you mentioned, Ceferino Garcia was said to have invented the bolo punch. The verison I have seen is a wide swinging uppercut like one is cutting cane, its based off the bolo knife and how it comes up from the ground. The other verison that most people call the bolo punch looks more like a really short overhand on a number one line.
This boxer a cuban who also used the bolo to cut cane, also had a bolo punch named after him and it was different than Ceferino’s. Looking through old papers it talks about him using it as an upper cut to the heart.
the #1 as I learned it via Precas’ ‘Modern Arnis’ would coincide with the way I teach to attack the neck/collerbone area with a ‘pi’ type strike via ‘knife’ hand or fist.
imo, a ‘vertical’ hammer has limited power and a plain old jab is stronger. however, if you get caught on the inside with your arms up…essentially you are ‘hammering’…it’s just not that strong.
so, i think we are talking the same here, Seven.
but it appears Black, has us by age and can reference a decade or more before us. ;D ( i know, that’s not going to work but it’s what fits )
as far as a ‘bolo’…why isn’t that just an ‘upward’ strike? call it an upper cut or what have you but a shot-from-lower-than-him-angling-upwards by any other name…is just the reciprocal angle of return from a #1 or #2???
or…any overhand hook that missed and return on the reciprocal with the other hand?
by the time I got to what Precas was teaching that strike would have been referred to as just ‘upward cutting’ or maybe an abinico type move up from a downward strike.
depends on your wrist strength…you are striking with the back of the hand near the wrist, right? while most of the strike should impact bone on bone, if you slip to far forward on the hand you need wrist strength to hold the hand in position and not bend too far in to the wrist press position.
also, the pushup I’m talking about starts on the backs of the hands and as you press up, roll to the knuckles and then as you relax downwards again, roll back to the wrist.
There really are two different bolo punches, both are hookercut punches. A hookercut punch being a combination of two punches in a way to breed a different animal.
The FMA inspired Ceferino Garcia bolo punch some consider to be a gimmick style punch which works on circular motion and not full body displacement. Personally I don’t like that style of punch as it seems to put my shoulder at a odd angle and it feels weak to me.
The “Kid” Gavilan bolo punch was a little later from the 40’s and he learned the movement cutting cane in cuba but its a combo uppercut/hook punch which is a full body weight swing. I like this one a lot better but it looks a little goofy sometimes.
Macario Flores is another boxer from the 20’s, even before Ceferino who had what some termed a bolo punch but its said he learned it from throwing the bolo and not cutting cane.
Here is a pic of some peeps cutting cane in Cuba. It looks like some are using the upswing and some are using the downswing at different times.
as far as a ‘bolo’…why isn’t that just an ‘upward’ strike
In the Gavilan method it is in a way, think a deep swinging uppercut/hook punch with a good deal of body swing behind it. Where a normal uppercut is more of a classical movement.
makes sense…in the work aspect of cutting cane one would certainly need to economize motion and work on one motion definitely flowing in to the other so as to not use more energy than needed.
i’ve done a lot of landscaping and other work requiring cutting including cutting survey lines…bushaxes are fun!
As you mentioned, Ceferino Garcia was said to have invented the bolo punch. The verison I have seen is a wide swinging uppercut like one is cutting cane, its based off the bolo knife and how it comes up from the ground. The other verison that most people call the bolo punch looks more like a really short overhand on a number one line.
This boxer a cuban who also used the bolo to cut cane, also had a bolo punch named after him and it was different than Ceferino’s. Looking through old papers it talks about him using it as an upper cut to the heart.
I know about that punch - that’s not it. I may have the wrong guy. there are actually three punches with this name. there is the uppercut bolo, the downward I am referring to and the feint / jab that sugar ray leonard used
[QUOTE=Oso;744512]depends on your wrist strength…you are striking with the back of the hand near the wrist, right? while most of the strike should impact bone on bone, if you slip to far forward on the hand you need wrist strength to hold the hand in position and not bend too far in to the wrist press position.
also, the pushup I’m talking about starts on the backs of the hands and as you press up, roll to the knuckles and then as you relax downwards again, roll back to the wrist.[/QUOTE]
Horizontal strike hitting with the big bone on the thumb side, to the neck for example.
It’s not a ridge hand, you hit with the radius and your palm is facing sort of up. I’ll have to find either a picture or the Chinese name of the technique.
[QUOTE=The Willow Sword;744452]We are seeing that in the MMA realm that the open hand is prevailing in the initial confrontations. [/QUOTE]
Where are we seeing this? Outside of the original Pancrase rules, and similar limited-rules structures where closed fists to the head are prohibited, I don’t recall seeing the open hand as the prevalent striking method.
