On Self-Defense Vs. Ring Sports

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Here–Khun Kao wrote this. It’s brilliantly written. Sums up my feelings nicely–95% anyway. Doesn’t have to be MT, obviously–any sportive art will do.

Others have already answered the question pretty darned well, but I’d still like to add my own thoughts on this.

One of the lessons that I always try to stress to my students is that Muay Thai is NOT self defense. It is a ring sport. End of story. Other Thai arts such as Lerdrit, Muay Chao Cherk, and Krabi Krabong are where you would find the kinds of techniques you would want for street defense. Now, this truly is an over-simplification of the matter, but it does still hold true… for the most part.

It isn’t a question of there being differences in the Muay Thai taught in the USA or Thailand. It’s all in intent. Muay Thai is meant to be fought in a ring, with rules, with a referee, and with judges.

But, Muay Thai does go a long way towards preparing someone to defend themselves when push does come to shove. The intense physical training under realistic circumstances gives a Thai boxer a decided advantage. As previously mentioned, a Thai boxer trains against resisting opponents. He learns to defend and retaliate against someone who is trying to take his head off.

One thing that I’ve noted from my own personal experience. Before I discovered Muay Thai, I trained in Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, and Ninjutsu. While training in each art, I was supposedly learning how to defend myself. Each school I trained with did, in fact, train more realistically than the last. But none of them truly prepared me for Muay Thai. I realize in retrospect that had I ever been faced with an altercation, I would have been sorely pressed to defend myself.

But now after years of Muay Thai training, I know that I have the skills to defend myself, but I also know that I can be ‘taken out’ by anyone on any given day. I also am very aware of what I can and cannot do.

For instance, I’m aware that I have no training to defend against an armed attacker. I cannot defend against multiple assailants. I also know that I would be in trouble if my opponent were to attempt to tackle or take me down to the ground.

My point is that before I found Muay Thai, I thought I could defend myself. But after studying Muay Thai, now I realize that I may not be able to defend myself, but I know that I can fight.

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My point is that before I found Muay Thai, I thought I could defend myself. But after studying Muay Thai, now I realize that I may not be able to defend myself, but I know that I can fight.

Pretty much sums it up for me. good post MP.

3

“intense physical training under realistic circumstances”

Thats the key, but
that doesnt mean sportive.

What makes you think that only happens in sportive styles??

There are people out there that will spar with no protection at all.

4

Hard to harder…

Thai boxing is a devastating fighting system. I would recommend it to novice’s and experienced martial artists who need a very solid foundation in kickboxing skills. As far as kickboxers go, Muay Thai cats are in the upper echelon.

Your post was on point, and learning Muay Thai will do nothing but increase one’s total fighting knowledge. I do feel that it’s not something you’ll be able to do when your >60 y.o., and it does go from hard training to even harder training, w/o the normal MAs progression from hard to hard-soft to soft/fluid. Still it’s better than 95% of the combat disciplines you could learn for self-protection and competition. Good post and quote, man. Take it light…

5

xebs,

Feeling a little defensive today? Someone get under your shorts or what?

Reread the quotation. He’s not saying that sport is the only way to self defense. He’s not saying that “traditional styles,” can’t train that way. When I say “any sportive art,” I’m saying that the concept isn’t MT specific.

Jesus!! It’s not like I just crawled off the Underground to tell you how much Kung Fu sucks.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

6

Leave my shorts out of it! They have nothing to do with this

“When I say “any sportive art,” I’m saying that the concept isn’t MT specific.”

Training hard and for real is not MT specific and its not any sportive specific either. Thats what im saying.
The diference between sport and non-sportive is just how many extra rules/gear you might have.
And also you get a medal when you win.
Ha!

I can agree with you that all sportive competition styles forces one to train hard, so the pushing factor is present in all of them unlike the non-sportive.

7

What defines “realistic training”?

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[b]I think its obvious that training in any style is a benefit. Whether it be Taekwonddo, or Brazilian Jujutsu, Martial Art practice is only a positive. Thus I think its rather ridiculous that people still try to find the “ultimate martial art”. There are no superior arts, only superior fighters.

There’s someone out there who could beat you down with skills he learned from playing Ping-Pong.[/b]

9

fu ck it. this hurts my head. im just gonna buy a gun and be done with martial arts all togeather.

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Originally posted by Legendary_Fist
[B][b]

There’s someone out there who could beat you down with skills he learned from playing Ping-Pong.[/b] [/B]

Paddle your a$$ into submission?

11

Crap!

A guy makes a BRILLIANTLY thought out post, well written, about Ring Sport NOT being Self Defense, then outlining what it was that the ring sport he chose offerred him–“not better than,” not “superior to,” but “what he got out of it,” and it somehow turns into a thread about getting your ass paddled by a ping pong player.

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MP - I think the problem again is that the guy is saying MT has what it takes, other arts do not.

"One thing that I’ve noted from my own personal experience. Before I discovered Muay Thai, I trained in Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, and Ninjutsu. While training in each art, I was supposedly learning how to defend myself. Each school I trained with did, in fact, train more realistically than the last. But none of them truly prepared me for Muay Thai. I realize in retrospect that had I ever been faced with an altercation, I would have been sorely pressed to defend myself. "

He states 3 examples from his own experience but goes on to talk like MT is really the only way to go. he does preface by saying it isnt the best street effective sport but then turns around and says, although he knows some of his skills need work, without MT he wouldnt have the confidence to fight.
Basically, if this were posted by anyone on this forum as thier post with any other art, as well as MT, it would have been torn apart almost immediately, not only that but you my friend would probably be in the forefront of that charge.

13

he also used the words “in my own personal experience.”

that’s very carefully worded, unlike many of the posts that i personally rail on. he’s not making statements about shotokan or ninjutsu. only about his experience in those styles. and that is something that none of us can argue with. and speaking for myself, i’m always very careful to draw that distinction.

stuart b.

14

He said that the training to FIGHT as a MT fighter in the RING, and then actually fighting in the ring taught him that he can FIGHT.

He knows he can fight. That’s it–done deal. What he’s pointing out is that when he trained the other arts, that was a big question mark (in his experience, at least), but he didn’t know that at the time. However, escaping an MT gym without learning to fight is kinda hard because they approach training as if you were going to fight in the ring.

Substitute San Shou or boxing or Shidokan or Kyokushinkai or Dog Brothers training for MT and I still don’t have a problem with it. BTW, I WOULD have a problem substituting Judo, Wrestling or BJJ–a glass jaw is something you don’t discover grappling, and getting hit is a very different experience than um, not getting hit–a lot of people are surprised by what getting hit for real is like and they kind of ‘forget’ everything. :slight_smile:

Read his last sentence in the post–can he defend himself–well, maybe–there’s a lot of things he admits aren’t strong suits in his training. Can he fight? No question about that. They aren’t the same thing. I think it’s a distinction that’s very important, and, in this case, happenned to nail on the head.

To sum up: Ring Sports aren’t self defense–but you will find out if you’re a fighter!

And as an add-on–what Ap said. :slight_smile:

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Ap - Very true, I am not saying I think he is wrong, just that MP was surprised at the reaction of some people. He did make it very obvious he was speaking from his own point of view but often even those post here will be attacked by some regulars here like a pack of dogs on a 3 legged cat.
The problem is when we share experience, especially over this medium, we often give the wrong impression. The guy who wrote the article, is probably a very reasonable man to talk to in person, much like most of the people we talk to on this forum, but the internet does not do conversation justice, so we sort of have to feel our way through sometimes.
I think what he says makes much sense, I feel the same way about wing chun.

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MP - I just saw your last post and I think this goes along with a string yesterday. Ultimately I dont think “sport fighting” that has an edge, it is the way you train that gives you this edge.

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red5angel,

solid point. well said.

and, for the record, yeah khun kao is a very reasonable guy in person. i’ve been pleasantly surprised by everyone i’ve met from KFO.

you’re right though, the medium itself is somewhat problematic in that regard.

stuart b.

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agreed. I believe that if I had the chance to talk to most of the people here I would find they are reasonable people. Although I sometimes have to remind myself of that… :slight_smile:

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i daresay we all do, mate. :slight_smile:

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most CQC guys don’t like sparring

if you look at CQC guys like Tony Blauer or Marc MacYoung advocate full contact senario-based training as opposed to sparring. They say the only good thing about martial sports is the full contact. But the dynamics of dealing with an assult are totally different.