I have come to the conlusion that this is simply not true. Martial Arts and self-defense don’t necessarily coincide.
Perfect example are the sportive arts. As commonly taught, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, MT, MMA etc, do not constitute self-defense.
They are quite clearly combat sports with self-defense applications, but they are not, in and of themselves self-defense. I will be so bold as to state that fighting skill is only a small fraction of of what self-defense really is all about.
I concur.
On the flip side, aikido, some styles of judo, karate, and kung fu are not so much sports, as arts derived from actual methods of combat to be used for what ever it is you seek.
They include important principals that lead to skills for combat, but are not directly combat oriented.
I will be so bold as to state that fighting skill is only a small fraction of of what self-defense really is all about.
Shaolin–why do we (universal we) insist on marketing self defense then, when only a VERY small portion of what is actually being done is self defense oriented? Everything you do in an MA school is geared towards mastery of a style–but not necessarily defending yourself?
I feel like you and I are stating the blantently obvious, but I think that an awful lot of people don’t feel that way…
I can go with that, sort of. I think all of those arts can be used for self defense. I see it this way because if we just work with averages here, the average bjj guy, when he fights sportively, fights an opponent who is resisting, and knows what he knows. If he can do this successfully, the chances of him dealing with someone who isnt trained, again and average attacker, then he should do pretty well.
Self defense is alot more then the physical skills of martial arts, that is a small part of the whole but most o fthese can be used for it.
As for marketing MP, its just that, a way to get people in. I know in my school, most of the poeple who come and go are looking for the buzzwords self defense, and get in shape. They arent looking for a Martial Art.
IMO, Self Defense is about the following:
I will be so bold as to state that fighting skill is only a small fraction of of what self-defense really is all about.
Yes, but first, one wonders how it got that way in the first place. Secondly, how are people so easily duped?
I’m quite clear on the fact that what I do is a sport with fighting applications. I’ve never considered that I’m learning “self-defense,” per se.
It’s like Khun’s thread–I KNOW I can fight–but I may not be able to defend myself.
Smartasses, the lot of you!
I feel like I’m reading the script for that stupid commericial with the Olympic Women’s soccer team (and I will have a filling).
Water–how do I join your board?
All I need is an e-mail. I have one of yours, but am not sure if that’s the one I should register.
Does it matter which one I register? It’s not going anywhere, I assume 
MP - It seems you might be arguing semantics then. What you do may not be “Self-Defense” per se but what is? Alot o fthe things Waterdragon listed could be considered that. Training in the martial arts can give you some of those as well.
Waterdragon - do you hava a site? Presumably with conversation a little more on the level than this one?
Well, I think it is fair to market ourselves as teachers of self defense in the broad sense…not just defense as in hand to hand comabat but awareness (defense against bad situations), health (defense against disease and weakness), mental stabilty (defense against stress and environment)…
Our dojo does not primarily market itself as a self defense school, but rather a method of leaning how to “harmonize mind, body, and spirit” and also as a means of learning self defense. It is interesting to note that our dojo has many advanced practitioners who are quite knowledgebale in self defense, and our sensei teaches self defense variations on aikido techniques very subtly mentioning them as “old style” techniques. It is a common thing among my seniors to show me a dangerous technique and then say “well, that’s not really ‘aikido’, but you should be aware of it”…but common in the sense that many of them have taught me in this way, not that everyone is taught this way. But at the same time, some of our black belts don’t care for these kinds of techniques, and prefer the partnered dance method of training. Both, I think, have value. Hehe, the harmonious presence of art and martial. That’s what I dig about aikido, you can be a dancer or a soldier, and still train together.
Red,
I don’t think I’m arguing semantics in this case–although I do that alot because I happen to think semantics are important–two people calling the same thing different names can lead to a shouting match.
Being able to fight and defending yourself are not synonymous. Being able to fight is a portion of self-defense, but not the whole thing.
Shaolin–do you discuss personal safety things in Aikido? Like making sure you have your keys out of your pocket/purse BEFORE you get the car door? Taking corners broadly rather than close to the building? That sort of thing? I dig your explanation, by the way.
Merry -
Topics like the one you mention tend to come up in casual converstation, but are not a part of class time.
There are some very interesting things about aikido that seemed strange to me at first, and now make much more sense after a couple years training that have to do with awareness. Here’s an example:
Aikido training methods be broken down into 4 components: attacks, counters, methods of execution, and falls. Therefore, each aikido technique goes like this…uke attacks with attack A, nage counters with counter X by method of execution Y, and uke falls (receives with his/her body).
One attack is called “ushiro”. It comes from a time when a person would be armed with two weapons, and his attacker would try to neutralize him by grabbing one hand, running in behind him, grabbing his other hand, and pulling or putting a knee in his back to that another attacker could safely stab him to death. It is also very similar to how a cop puts you in handcuffs (or simply how anyone may try to bind your wrists behind you).
So with this attack, we learn to counter someone’s attack when they are completely behind us.
Having studied these techniques for a while, I have noticed that I am far more sensitive to being appraoch from behind, as if my field of vision is wider, and I react much better to people creeping up on me.
So we have an example of how a new technique, derived from old style combat, helps us in the modern world.
“Being able to fight and defending yourself are not synonymous. Being able to fight is a portion of self-defense, but not the whole thing”
Agreed, but I think Self-Defense is aprt of any art, in that it may not be what is pushed but by practicing MA you wil get many o fthe things you need, whether you want to or not! 
I think in the broader sense of the word Waterdragon is correct. All of those things constitute self defense in the non combative sense of the phrase. Which concurs with MPs original statement.
But No6, “Unarmed fighting skill. For when you ignored steps 1-5 and need to fight your way out”, is self defense in the most combative, direct way possible. And of course, this definition in the form of combat skills is taught in most martial arts schools.
So according to the broader sense, then I would agree with:
“…As commonly taught, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, MT, MMA etc, do not constitute self-defense”.
But I would disagree with that statement in the context of self defense being:
“Unarmed fighting skill. For when you ignored steps 1-5 and need to fight your way out”
Of course, you could then get into how, if the school does not offer realistic training, then it nullifies the claim towards self defense, but that’s a seperate issue.
Red-
I don’t think that’s true at all. Situational Awareness and such are frequently not taught–or glossed over–in many schools, even the GOOD schools.
Many of them teach you to fight–whether or not they address self-defense type issues is a completely separate endeavor.
Well–
I have to go attend my non-self-defense oriented, combat-sport boxing class and trade jabs with a man who is 4 inches taller and 15 lbs heavier (joy…). I will see you all later, but I do hope that this whole thing keeps up!
Haha, enjoy!
Good Luck!
You are right in that, that apsect is often overlooked, although I do believe that in general you may pick some of this up as an after effect of studying martial arts. For me, once I started learning what could be done to the human body, I became more aware of potential danger in my environment. Somehow making it more real for me opened my eyes a little to the rest of the world. My experience may differ of course from most peoples.
However, I think I am starting to undertsand what you are saying, besides just knowing how to fight there are other aspects to self defense. For example, I play airsoft, similar to splatball. When I was in the marines I picked up many battlefield survival skills, the one that I use most often in airsoft is locating silhouettes in the brush, there are tell tale signs you look for and it has come in handy often. We didnt train directly in this but its something you pick up along the way.
In “self-defense” you must be able to pick out a situation before an encounter happens, or where an encounter is most likely to take place, and then verbal judo comes in handy as well. Martial arts in my opinion is your last line of “self-defense”.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]
Water–how do I join your board? [/B]
I added you to the list using your hotmail account.