old kung fu masters fight

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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Lkf, I don’t know much about Neil, but Lung used to finish his musing with the exact same ending as Neil just did…

Anyways, why do I waste my typing on you people, anyway? Whatever

No, that was not Jack Dempsey. Dempsey was one of the finest heavyweights in existance, he broke attendance and financial records for the period, his most famous fight would be that of the Long Count between himself and Gene Tuney, a lot of his past is written down in many books at this point.

During World War II, he became a commander in the U.S. Coast Guard and put in charge of crafting a hand to hand combat/physical fitness program for its soldiers, he was adept at stripped down jujitsu, having studied with Bernard J. Cosneck who wrote the book American Combat Judo and Andy Filosa who was a wrestler, boxer and jiu jitsu player. Jack wrote what some call the finest manuel on boxing ever created, its called Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defence, its part of my own collection and he also wrote with Frank Menke a book titled How to Fight Tough, it is a instructional on pier six style cqb for the soldiers.

He said something really wicked once that became a famous quote-“I can’t sing and I can’t dance, but I can lick any SOB in the house.”

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[QUOTE=Black Jack II;746613]Lkf, I don’t know much about Neil, but Lung used to finish his musing with the exact same ending as Neil just did…
[/QUOTE]

There’s just no point to these arguments. People just want to further their own agenda, and that isn’t exactly cooperation. There is no benefit to cooperation because most people want to make money from martial arts, or do so eventually.

Besides, this clip is OLD … it’s been brought up on forums many times over the past 10 years or so, and always went nowhere.

23

[QUOTE=neilhytholt;746512]Anyways, why do I waste my typing on you people, anyway? Whatever.[/QUOTE]

a question asked many times, yet apparantly never answered, since you do keep comming back

it’s certainly not for the stimulating intellectual exchange, since you repeatedly decry the lack of that (in your opinion)

my guess is that, despite what you profer, you are simply addicted to the attention that your polemics generate, nothing more, nothing less; you maight be bored, lonely, whatever, so you come here to supplement what is missing in your life…

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[QUOTE=cjurakpt;746622]a question asked many times, yet apparantly never answered, since you do keep comming back

it’s certainly not for the stimulating intellectual exchange, since you repeatedly decry the lack of that (in your opinion)

my guess is that, despite what you profer, you are simply addicted to the attention that your polemics generate, nothing more, nothing less; you maight be bored, lonely, whatever, so you come here to supplement what is missing in your life…[/QUOTE]

Actually, the reason I came back this week is that I had to quit my teacher because he refused to have partner practice, and I was looking for some training options. This isn’t the only board that I went to the past couple of weeks.

Unfortunately, as usual, I didn’t find a solution to this problem.

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[QUOTE=Black Jack II;746461]Ah, if anybody would know the backstory on that chinese boxing match it might be you lkf, good info.

Wonder what peeps are going to say?[/QUOTE]

I actually posted that clip a few years back, I used to host it on my server. It’s been posted here several times since then. I can’t remember where I originally found it, but It’s circulated A LOT over the years. That clip was from a fight in macau around 1954. Apparently, one of the guys was a taiji master, and the other white crane. If I remember correct, the taiji guy is the son of the man credited with founding that particular style of taiji…

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[QUOTE=neilhytholt;746623]Actually, the reason I came back this week is that I had to quit my teacher because he refused to have partner practice, and I was looking for some training options. This isn’t the only board that I went to the past couple of weeks.

Unfortunately, as usual, I didn’t find a solution to this problem.[/QUOTE]

so I guess your business here is concluded then?

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[QUOTE=cjurakpt;746625]so I guess your business here is concluded then?[/QUOTE]

I guess so.

Look at the arguments. It always comes down to the same players. You have:

a) Sanshou/sanda (lkfmdc, GoldenArms, etc.) essentially saying that CMA doesn’t fight, so do sanshou/sanda.

b) MMA/BJJ (knifefighter and whoever else) saying CMA sucks so do MMA

c) Traditionalists who claim just forms are all you need and maybe a few drills and point sparring.

d) Taiji people who are constantly defending their turf.

It pretty much goes nowhere because this is just a sales board, after all. People come on here to sell their programs, evidently, so if you’re not selling anything it’s kindof pointless.

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you forgot a section of individuals.

e) people who arent concerned with the arguments and train as best they can with what hey have available.

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f) People who obsess about mat-herpes.

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g) those funny b@stards that make me spit water on my monitor.

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[QUOTE=PangQuan;746628]you forgot a section of individuals.

e) people who arent concerned with the arguments and train as best they can with what hey have available.[/QUOTE]

Do you think it’s because as a society, we don’t do well with cooperatives? If you look at the dominant organizational structures, there businesses, corporations, governmental institutions, educational organizations, but there are very few cooperatives.

Cooperatives are usually social events, so of course when people get together for cooperatives they would probably organize it like a social event. That’s probably why outside class practice sessions turn into social events.

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[QUOTE=MasterKiller;746629]f) People who obsess about mat-herpes.[/QUOTE]

Laugh while you can, but soon most MA classes will probably have modify their protocols (bare feet, etc.) due to MRSA and mat herpes, etc.

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[QUOTE=neilhytholt;746632]Laugh while you can, but soon most MA classes will probably have modify their protocols (bare feet, etc.) due to MRSA and mat herpes, etc.[/QUOTE]

repent, for the end is indeed nigh…

(I guess it’s only a matter of time for the judo people as well - I mean, they might have gotten away with their unsanitary habits for the 1st hundred years or so, but that’s probably right about to change…)

also

h) people who can’t fathom that the reason why they continually alienate large cross-sections of on-line forum members might actually have something to do with their attitude and method of how they present themselves, rather than a conspiracy against them by society at large…

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[QUOTE=cjurakpt;746638]repent, for the end is indeed nigh…

(I guess it’s only a matter of time for the judo people as well - I mean, they might have gotten away with their unsanitary habits for the 1st hundred years or so, but that’s probably right about to change…)
[/quote]

Yep, MRSA is pretty nasty business. Even Judo will have to change what they’re doing unless they come up with some better drugs for it soon.

http://judoforum.com/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=32&showentry=303

(This, BTW, is of a girl who broke her ankle doing judo and had to have surgery and got a bad staph infection … meantime her judo gym is in quarantine due to a MRSA outbreak from the wrestlers that train there … afterwards she continues training judo with a staph infection, evidently. Pretty messed up stuff.)

h) people who can’t fathom that the reason why they continually alienate large cross-sections of on-line forum members might actually have something to do with their attitude and method of how they present themselves, rather than a conspiracy against them by society at large…

There’s no conspiracy. There’s just a lot of people who like to put up attitude and put people down rather than really discussing things.

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[QUOTE=Water-quan;746552]Well now, seeing is believeing! Very funny… The biggest lesson is to see the process here - now, on this forum that causes that disgraceful show… the process of making excuses instead of learnig the lessons. There’s no excuse for that kind of thing - none. The process of making excuses is killing CMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ZBR51Tewg[/QUOTE]

sticking with that example (yiquan) look at at his forms, then look at his drills - his bag work is basically jabs and crosses with his footwork - If I had no clue it was a clip of a CMA guy, I’d guess that he was an entry level boxer. (Note that I am not saying his skill level is entry level - I have no clue who he is. I am saying that from a boxing perspective, as opposed to a yiquan perspective, there are some things that are wrong) His forms looked like what you saw in his push hands, but his drilling was way different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7s0PNHdAB8&mode=related&search=

in the above clip, you can see the form work in the push hands - but it looks good, as it is cooperative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8HWoSoS6U

that clip is not cooperative, so understandably it looks much less like the form.

this clip is of san shou training, supposedly from the yiquan style. It looks nothing like anything you see in the forms, but it does look like ring fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIun2B_I-s0&mode=user&search=

This is why people question the necessity of forms practice…

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;746515]Well, we have the clip of that not so great fight… so, we have evidence that, at least on one occassion, he didn’t fight so skillfully.

Now show one where he is fighting a MT fighter to provide some evidence that there might have been an occassion where he showed more skill.[/QUOTE]
Just because something isn’t on video doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;746515]Can you list the events in which he fought and which opponents he beat please?[/QUOTE]
I’d have to do some digging for the specifics but if you run a search on Lai Hung you’ll find many mentions of these fights. I believe one of the fighters he competed against was Bing Leung who was a top-notch Cambodian boxer. I remember reading that the fight ended without a winner being decided and there was a miscommunication with the referee.

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[QUOTE=SevenStar;746654] sticking with that example (yiquan) look at at his forms, then look at his drills - his bag work is basically jabs and crosses with his footwork - If I had no clue it was a clip of a CMA guy, I’d guess that he was an entry level boxer. (Note that I am not saying his skill level is entry level - I have no clue who he is.
[/QUOTE]

Did you mean the link that I put up? It’s all getting confusing! The link I put up was the Yao brothers - famous in some quarters - training when they were younger.

Dude, say what you want! Honesty - that’s what we need!

Their father, Yao XongZun, incorporated a lot of boxing drills in to his Yiquan method, hence the boxing connection. They do their bag work, seemingly, very relaxed. Not sure it’s a lack of power though - more a training way. Interestingly, I’ve been thinking that myself lately - if maybe excessive power work on the bag might be harming me, and maybe I should do it a bit more like that Yao brothers.

By forms, you mean the movemnts and stuff at the beginning? It’s not forms, SS - Yiquan has no forms - it’s called shili and mocabu - trial of strength and friction stepping - it’s an exercise desgined to improve the body’s ability to move and act as a whole, integrated unit. Well, in theory.

[QUOTE=SevenStar;746654]

I am saying that from a boxing perspective, as opposed to a yiquan perspective, there are some things that are wrong) His forms looked like what you saw in his push hands, but his drilling was way different.

[/QUOTE]

Ok. I think myself the push hands argument tends to go in the wrong direction. To me, push hands is a training exercise - quite a useful one, just for learning about the feel of movement and how people push you and pull you. I think most of us have probably had encounters known as “shirt grabbers” lol - that niggly, pre-fight grabby pushy thing. I think that’s where push hands teaches useful things.

Punching is always going to look different to the push hands stuff because it has a different purpose. A punch isn’t ever going to look like a push hand technique - but I still think both are useful. Point being that we have to know if the criticism is aimed in the right direction. As in, does push hands training need to look like kick boxing training - or are they two different things, for two different types of dealing with a person?

But - good - that’s what we need, honest, open criticism - everything should be made to justify it’s appearence in the training regime. If it can’t justify itself, then why is it there! Myself, I find push hands, and the shili stuff to have improved my level a great deal - a hell of a lot more than forms trainign ever did!

[QUOTE=SevenStar;746654]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7s0PNHdAB8&mode=related&search=

in the above clip, you can see the form work in the push hands - but it looks good, as it is cooperative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8HWoSoS6U

that clip is not cooperative, so understandably it looks much less like the form.
[/QUOTE]

Well, that’s fair comment. I think in training, push hands needs a certain level of cooperation, because it’s like beign a training dummy for your partner, allowing him to feel and react at his own level. I think for the competition shown, they should just have a fight if they are going to have those rules - I can’t see the point in it.

[QUOTE=SevenStar;746654]
this clip is of san shou training, supposedly from the yiquan style. It looks nothing like anything you see in the forms, but it does look like ring fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIun2B_I-s0&mode=user&search=

This is why people question the necessity of forms practice… [/QUOTE]

Well, Yiquan doesn’t have forms of course. But, the questuion is a good one - I also totally reject the need for forms - in fact, I think they cripple people. But, what you saw the Yao brothers doing wasn’t forms - it’s the catchign of a certain feeling - it can be done with any movement, or freedom movement. I’m not saying it works or has mystical powers - just saying that that’s the rationale behind it. I don’t practice Yiquan.

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[QUOTE=The Xia;746659]Just because something isn’t on video doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.[/QUOTE]

Of course not… but if the only evidence on video is of crappy fighting, one has to wonder.

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[QUOTE=The Xia;746659]Just because something isn’t on video doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
[/QUOTE]

That is true. But you gotta wonder about something like that… If you see a guy who looks like he has absolutely no skill, wouldn’t it set off a red flag when you hear or read that the exact same guy stomped several thai boxers? While I’m sure there have been cma guys who have beaten thai boxers, After seeing that one vid, I would NEVER believe that he was one of them.

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[QUOTE=Water-quan;746660]Did you mean the link that I put up? It’s all getting confusing! The link I put up was the Yao brothers - famous in some quarters - training when they were younger.

Dude, say what you want! Honesty - that’s what we need![/quote]

No, I like the clip, and the drills. I am referring only to the difference between the way they look in push hands, the way they fight and the drills that they are performing.

Their father, Yao XongZun, incorporated a lot of boxing drills in to his Yiquan method, hence the boxing connection. They do their bag work, seemingly, very relaxed. Not sure it’s a lack of power though - more a training way. Interestingly, I’ve been thinking that myself lately - if maybe excessive power work on the bag might be harming me, and maybe I should do it a bit more like that Yao brothers.

why and how would it harm you?

Ok. I think myself the push hands argument tends to go in the wrong direction. To me, push hands is a training exercise - quite a useful one, just for learning about the feel of movement and how people push you and pull you. I think most of us have probably had encounters known as “shirt grabbers” lol - that niggly, pre-fight grabby pushy thing. I think that’s where push hands teaches useful things.

Punching is always going to look different to the push hands stuff because it has a different purpose. A punch isn’t ever going to look like a push hand technique - but I still think both are useful. Point being that we have to know if the criticism is aimed in the right direction. As in, does push hands training need to look like kick boxing training - or are they two different things, for two different types of dealing with a person?

I wouldn’t expect push hands to look like a strike anymore than I would expect clinch work to look like a strike. But, as you said, there are specific practices for that. Neither look like forms work. I wasn’t aware that yiquan had no forms, however, I was thinking that the first part of that clip was from a form.