A couple of posts down Knifefighter was asking for an example of actual kung fu techniques used in sparring, so I came across this dozy, its a exhibition fight from 1953 between two kung fu masters, one is white crane and the other tai chi ch’uan.
The film is a grainy and the fight starts at the 1:50 mark but the real question is why does this match for the most part, look oddly worse than half the high school slugfests you see on youtube??
Plus were is this form specific technique a lot of people say one can see from good kungfu in a sparring match, I see a lot of haymakers, some wheeling chain punches which may or may not be part of the one guys system, some horrible kicks, hardly any defense…
The 1953 clip is a GREAT EXAMPLE of what happens when you practice in your school, with your classmates, never compete and base your perception on that experience. The hype leading up to this debacle was amazing, both guys said they would decimate the other, people worried there would be a death, many feared the evil “death touch”…
The white crane guy, Chan Hak Fu, was so disgusted by his performance that he formed his own organization and changed the way they practiced. They started sparring with boxing gloves … back then there were also people who said “real kung fu has no gloves”… yet when the Thai’s started showing up at the Hong Kong open, at least Chan’s students held their own, the “real kung fu” guys got frequently KO’d in under a minute
That was so horrible, I thought it might be better to put a quick collection up of a real martial artist doing his thing in the ring. The one…the only…the Manassa Mauler himself.
King of the Heavyweights and skilled man of combat judo…
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;746459] I came across this dozy, its a exhibition fight from 1953 between two kung fu masters, one is white crane and the other tai chi ch’uan.
This is a good example of styles that are set up along theoretical parameters of how fighting “should” be. These styles train along the parameters of how they think fighting should be. However, they rarely, if ever, test out their theories in realistic situation. Because of this, on the rare occassions when they do fight, their fighting is completely different from their training.
While that is an example of a style made up based upon the realities that are observed from constant testing… because of this, training and fighting techniques are almost exactly the same.
For the longest time the fighting tournaments in Hong Kong had no “official” winner. This way no sifu lost face. I know my sifu was involved in starting tournaments that had fighting with a winner chosen and he took a lot of heat for it from older masters who like it the old way.
If anyone wants to use it as a weapon to knock Kung Fu, there are retorts for that. Sifu Lai Hung has an impressive ring record and defeated Muay Thai fighters. That’s a good one. What now Knifefighter?
This is a very famous old fight. A terrible example of martial arts of any type.
You know, I bought gear for safe partner training, gloves, pads, etc., but when I tried to do partner training people would do bad aikijitsu/wing chun type of stuff and they spent 90 of the time talking and 10% training.
And that was when people actually trained. A lot of the time they just want to teach – not really train give and take.
I don’t know the solution. Problem with a boxing sparring partner is they just punch.
Anyways, if anybody figures it out, let me know. And please don’t mention these:
a) throwdowns. (Not enough sparring practice beforehand – how are you supposed to fight?)
b) partner practice. Are you really willing to give and take, or are you just gonna talk a lot and want to teach?
c) schools. I don’t give a crap what your school has to offer or signing up for your monthly program, so just save your breath.
It really seems like the old adage is true. CMA guys just like to argue.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;746470]it’s crap and that clip is an old rube.[/QUOTE]
How so? It is two very famous masters from very famous lineages… just because they look like crap and it isn’t conveinant to accept that, you want to dismiss it?
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;746499]How so? It is two very famous masters from very famous lineages… just because they look like crap and it isn’t conveinant to accept that, you want to dismiss it?[/QUOTE]
They’re crap. You know, there are a lot of stories about different masters going and training with different people, Li Cunyi, Sun Lu Tang, Dong Hai Chuan, Cheng Ting Hua to trade techniques and stuff.
But try to do that today and you get a sales pitch from whatever school you want to train with. Nobody wants the random person coming in to train with them.
Partner training – people are too greedy. They want to teach or do their techniques but they don’t want to trade off.
So you have the combination of schools trying to sell, people who are greedy, and what you have is a low skill level because people can’t cross-train effectively. Every new school they have to start over learning a bunch of worthless forms.
So if you figure out the solution (and I bet lkfmdc will say study sanda with big puffy gloves … as will any sanshou/sanda advocate … LOL … I think we should call him Puff Daddy) let me know.
[QUOTE=neilhytholt;746502]They’re crap. You know, there are a lot of stories about different masters going and training with different people, Li Cunyi, Sun Lu Tang, Dong Hai Chuan, Cheng Ting Hua to trade techniques and stuff.
But try to do that today and you get a sales pitch from whatever school you want to train with. Nobody wants the random person coming in to train with them.
Partner training – people are too greedy. They want to teach or do their techniques but they don’t want to trade off.
So you have the combination of schools trying to sell, people who are greedy, and what you have is a low skill level because people can’t cross-train effectively. Every new school they have to start over learning a bunch of worthless forms.
So if you figure out the solution (and I bet lkfmdc will say study sanda with big puffy gloves … as will any sanshou/sanda advocate … LOL … I think we should call him Puff Daddy) let me know.[/QUOTE]
Suddenly, I am beginning to think you are Neil/Lung…
Your post has nothing to do with mine
Chan Hak Fu was a senior student of Ng Siu Chung, who was a student of Wong Lam Hoi, who was a student of Sing Lung
Wu Kung Yi was of THE “Wu” family that started Wu style, ie he was a close to the source as you could get
We do MMA with 6 oz gloves. Hardly “puffy”…
how many ring or cage matches have YOU had? :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;746509]Suddenly, I am beginning to think you are Neil/Lung…
Your post has nothing to do with mine
Chan Hak Fu was a senior student of Ng Siu Chung, who was a student of Wong Lam Hoi, who was a student of Sing Lung
Wu Kung Yi was of THE “Wu” family that started Wu style, ie he was a close to the source as you could get
We do MMA with 6 oz gloves. Hardly “puffy”…
how many ring or cage matches have YOU had? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Oh, give me a break. Of course I’m Neil.
You said, these guys suck because they didn’t cross-train. I was AGREEING with you.
Anyways, why do I waste my typing on you people, anyway? Whatever.
[QUOTE=The Xia;746491]If anyone wants to use it as a weapon to knock Kung Fu, there are retorts for that. Sifu Lai Hung has an impressive ring record and defeated Muay Thai fighters. That’s a good one. What now Knifefighter? :p[/QUOTE]
Well, we have the clip of that not so great fight… so, we have evidence that, at least on one occassion, he didn’t fight so skillfully.
Now show one where he is fighting a MT fighter to provide some evidence that there might have been an occassion where he showed more skill.
Sifu Lai Hung has an impressive ring record and defeated Muay Thai fighters.
Can you list the events in which he fought and which opponents he beat please?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;746515]Well, we have the clip of that not so great fight… so, we have evidence that, at least on one occassion, he didn’t fight so skillfully.
Now show one where he is fighting a MT fighter to provide some evidence that there might have been an occassion where he showed more skill.
Can you list the events in which he fought and which opponents he beat please?[/QUOTE]
Here’s an idea … all the CMA fighters face off against all the MMA fighters …
… and whoever wins, can take on the sport hunters.
Okay?
Anyways, this entire debate is kindof pointless, isn’t it? Lkfmdc wants more sanshou/sanda/mma students. Knifefighter wants more who knows what … fights … personal training students? He is a BJJ black belt after all. Hung ga wants more hung ga students. Yang taiji wants more yang form students… of course you’re not going to agree because you all have conflicting agendas.
Well now, seeing is believeing! Very funny… The biggest lesson is to see the process here - now, on this forum that causes that disgraceful show… the process of making excuses instead of learnig the lessons. There’s no excuse for that kind of thing - none. The process of making excuses is killing CMA.
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;746472]That was so horrible, I thought it might be better to put a quick collection up of a real martial artist doing his thing in the ring. The one…the only…the Manassa Mauler himself.
King of the Heavyweights and skilled man of combat judo…
