Nevermind. YOu do have video clips.
I always wanted to put up a general kung fu webpage representing many styles.
I hope to add many video clips as well.
I need to take a dreamweaver html class.
Cool Video Clips
If you want cool video clips check out this page
http://www.wccma.com/videogallery.htm
JosephX,
Somehow, I don’t see the rewriting of history taking over in America. Like you alluded to, it seems to be too much a business risk for the saavy enterpreneurs. Especially when the two biggest camps are Lee Koon Hung/Tat Mau Wong and Doc Fai Wong.
But it is indeed interesting that the Tarm Sarm lineage is the change agent. That being said, my guess is that the rewriting will stay in the Buk Sing world.
Since you are Chan Family, I want to get your perspective on something, and I apologize in advance because I’m sure this has been a discussion thread before. It is the issue of the Green Grass Monk. Doc Fai Wong’s school of thought rejects the notion that such a monk ever existed and was not part of CLF development, while the Cheung Yim folks indeed believe. I’m curious to know what the Chan Family thinks.
Thanks a lot,
123
Isn’t the Chan family version that “green grass monk” was a pseudonym of Choy Fook?
123
I am not a Chan Family member although my lineage can be traced back to Chan Yiu-Chi.
The issue of Green Grass Monk was discussed extensively on the clfma website:
http://www.clfma.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB_14&file=index&action=viewtopic&topic=80&0
According to the Chan Family manuscript, Choy Fook admitted that he used the name GGM as one of his alias. A photo of the relevant document was shown on the website at one stage but I can not locate it anymore. It seem genuine to me.
JosephX
JAZA
Not only Sifu Vince Lacey is more diplomatic (a quality I am also lacking), he sees things differently:
“As long as we believe and agree that Great Grandmaster Chan Heung is the Founder and Jeung Hung Sing (Jeung Yim) is the founder of the Hung Sing Kwoon (school) and Tarm Sarm (Tam Sam) is the founder of Buk Sing Kwoon, there is no need to fight among yourselves as to who has the real version of the History of Choy Lay Fut! We are all ONE family-Choy Lay Fut!”
– Sifu Vince Lacey
“CLARIFICATION ON CHOY LAY FUT MARTIAL ARTS
CHEUNG HUNG SING - Chong Pai Jo Si (original founder)
CHAN HEUNG - one of Cheung Hung Sing’s teachers…
This CLARIFICATION by the “Choi Lee Fut Kung Fu International Union” was only made after it had received unanimous support from the majority of fraternity members of the different branches."
- Master “General” D. Lacey, Jueng Moon Yan.
How can two twin brothers who studied from the same teacher and belonged to the same union came to different conclusions and air them publicly to contradict each other? Is there something going on we don’t know about?
k-no,
I wonder who are “the majority of fraternity members of the different branches” referred to by the “General”? Has anyone got a list? Is the “general” speaking on behalf of the Union or is he just speaking for himself? k-no, do you know, since you posted the article for your sifu? Or are you still busy looking for a job?
k-no, when you are free can you answer my questions, including the ones about the dates? If you can’t, please ask your sifu. Thanking you in advance.
JosephX
Joseph:
I guess K-no won’t reply probably because his sifu doesn’t permit, due to the critics to this forum in his article.
I also recommend chan family fellows not to follow commenting this article, because is like feeding a fire that we doesn’t start, and giving a space to this controversy article.
Regards
pardon me, JAZA,
I am thinking that k-no is not responding for reasons unknown to you (" I guess …".), and while it is well for you to advocate a cease fire, yet what you said made no sense. See, if someone wishes to start a controversy in a formal manner (such as writing an article and publicizing it), then the fact that there are critics should in no way violate the terms of the discussion. And, you brought attention to a matter which was already finding its way down the page… .
In fact, we don’t know who has shut down or delayed this interaction for sure, or exactly why.
It appears to me that something serious needs to be worked out, but maybe not here or not now. I don’t have the information to evaluate the findings, or the resources to trace them back if I was so inclined. Something Feels unfortunate.
Cody
Waking Dragon, stretching.
Cody, you see..
there’s really nothing to fight about. If D. Lacey wants to claim that Cheong Yim is the founder of CLF and Chan Heung was his teacher, that’s allright. That’s his point of view and there’s really no evidence to support it, so it’s nothing to worry about.
I think most of the Chan family guys won’t comment on this controversy anymore, because people in high levels have decided not to touch it until there’s some real historical facts to support either side. Why? We have fought about this same thing so many times before and there’s no new findings since. So why should we go through the same fight again?
I’m not arguing,
and I wasn’t addressing either a pro or con re any data, or the history of the disagreement, that has been discussed, or I have read. I think what I am referring to is more a matter of decorum.
I don’t like it when other people, who might not be in a position to express themselves further in this type of situation, have excuses made for them in an unflattering way, whether it be true or not. If someone must withdraw either because of illness (like the flu), injury, or any other event or circumstance, it is not a cause for this. No matter what side I would take, if I were to research it myself (complete with original documentation, and access to higher ups – not likely), I still wouldn’t act like that.
It’s unkind and unnecessary. I think it’s best to let it go. I mean. Really let it go.
Cody
Sorry Cody if you take my answer as rude, it was not my intentions.
I said, I guess not I’m sure, because is what I think what is a possibility, if is not I don’t think it’s offensive and it’s concordant with the article.
I have nothings against k-no or sifu Dave Lacey, even I have shown my respect to him.
I only don’t agree with the way of his article, and I think that discusing it only will end in discordance. Even I don’t call a cease fire may be the word fire is not correct, I tried to said specially to Joseph not to follow commenting, I dont tried to bring the article up.
Once again, regrets if I was rude, i’ts never my intentions.
I have a feeling the reason why k-no is reluctant to answer my questions is because his Sifu Dave Lacey has made a couple of mistakes about dates which underpinned his claim that Cheung Yim being the sole founder of CLF. Their evidence do not add up so they decided to shut up.
The Chan Family guys have not bited into this contraversy because they knew the Green Grass Monk / Cheung Yim claim is ridiculous and they do not want to embarrass Sifu Dave Lacey in public and hurt other feelings unneccesarily.
JosephX
Joseph:
Coming from a mixed lineage Chan Hueng & Cheong Yim I have a question for you.
Why does it seem that it is either Chan Family or Jeong Yim’s side?
What I mean is Chan Hueng had other notable students besides his sons and in turn his sons had students. In fact Chan Yiu Chi was supposed to have 4 famous students known as the “4 wonders” or something like that. Where are people from these lineages and why don’t you hear about any of them. Lung Chi Choy was supposed to have been one of Chan Hueng’s original disciples. Has his lineage died off?
Last thing, I don’t consider Cheong Yim as a co-founder of CLF, however you have to admit there are a lot of people around today that carry his lineage so he must have been good or why would so many students come from his lineage?
Peace.
JAZA. It’s okay.
peace,
Cody
Off the topic a bit, does anyone know of any present day Sifus who is from the Chan On Pak lineage? I understand Doc Fai Wong is, I’m just wondering if there’s anyone else…
123
CLFNole,
Q: Coming from a mixed lineage Chan Hueng & Cheong Yim I have a question for you.
Why does it seem that it is either Chan Family or Jeong Yim’s side?
What I mean is Chan Hueng had other notable students besides his sons and in turn his sons had students. In fact Chan Yiu Chi was supposed to have 4 famous students known as the “4 wonders” or something like that. Where are people from these lineages and why don’t you hear about any of them. Lung Chi Choy was supposed to have been one of Chan Hueng’s original disciples. Has his lineage died off?
A: You are right, there are many other lines other than the Chan Family and Jeong Yim. We hear a lot about these 2 sides because there is a debate on at the moment to discuss whether Chan Heung or Jeong Yim was the sole founder of CLF. In reality there are many other schools from mixed lineage like yours and from Chan Heung’s disciples other than his family members. They are out there but they don’t know this forum exists (and most of them don’t speak English), or if they do they chose to remain silent.
Loong Chi Choi’s line has not died off. Yuen Hai was one of his students who also studied with Jeong Yim, so was Leu Charn (Tam Sam’s teacher), but for some reasons they don’t want to acknowledge his contribution at all.
Chan Yiu-Chi’s line is also going strong. There are many of his students and their students teaching in China as well as Hong Kong and the west. My father and I are from his line. One of the problem is most of these people are business men and professionals like myself, they don’t teach kung fu for a living, therefore they have a smaller student base.
Q: Last thing, I don’t consider Cheong Yim as a co-founder of CLF, however you have to admit there are a lot of people around today that carry his lineage so he must have been good or why would so many students come from his lineage?
A: Because, as you said it, Jeong Yim was a really good teacher and he encouraged his students to teach and many of them migrated to the west as well. Contrary to Sifu Dave Lacey’s claim, the Chan Family has never tried to put him down. The memorial tablet I saw in King Mui Village clearly acknowledged his contribution to CLF. Personally I don’t have any problems with Jeong Yim at all, the issue I have is with people who claimed him to be either the co-founder and now the sole founder of CLF. It is like waking up one morning and find you have a father you don’t know about or your mother has slept with two men and now you have 2 fathers! The sad part is we are doing all this for money and for pride and prejudice and not for anything else!
CLFNole, may I ask you a question in return? What do you think of Sifu Dave Lacey’s assertion that Jeong Yim was the sole founder of CLF and Chan Heung was just one of his teachers? Do you think Jeong Yim studied with Chan Yeun-Wun and Lee Yau-Shan as well?
JosephX
123
Chan On Pak was well known for his “luk yum” skills but he did not have any male offsprings. His most famous disciple was Chan Cheung-Mo and his base was in Kong Moon. Many of the modern day practitioners there can trace their lineage to On-Pak.
If you go and study in Kong Moon, you can be one of the few westerners who can claim your lineage to him. Now that is a good selling point! You can get a beautiful Chinese girlfriend at the same time while you teach English there to get by. 
JosephX
Sisuk Joseph:
I think Sifu Lacey’s article was a bit forceful to put it kindly. He is entitled to his opinion and I respect that. I don’t look at Cheong Yim as a founder of CLF, maybe Hung Sing CLF, however he really didn’t create a new style but rather new forms with the same principals so therefore it might not be considered a new system but rather as one puts it a branch.
As far as who Cheong Yim studied with I really don’t know. I was told the story with the Green Grass Monk and if I choose to believe it that is my right. The Chan Family side says there was no person, the Hung Sing side there was. The Chinese government says there was a Green Grass Monk for whatever thats worth (probably communist propaganda)
Why is this story so popular? Why was the story written long ago if it wasn’t based on some factual data?
Oh yeah as far as the lineages being heard. I didn’t mean on this forum I meant more outside in the real world. Most of the CLF sifus I know, have met or heard of are usually Chan Family or Hung Sing. I do know some from the Fong Yuk Shu lineage and Wong Doc Fai claims multiple lineages.
Also, I knew that Lui Chan studied with Cheong Yim, however I didn’t know that he studied with Lung Gi Choy. Was it common back then to study from various sifus since in the old days people were taught based on their size and shape and therefore certain teachers had certain things to offer that others might not?
Peace.
Although I am not a member of any of Doc Fai Wong’s organizations, however on the Chan Heung Cheung Yim front, I would say I am in agreement with his article on the CLF history from the recent issue of May 2002 Inside Kung Fu Magazine posted on the An article on CLF history by Sifu D. Lacey discussion on clfma.com. http://www.clfma.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB_14&file=index&action=viewtopic&topic=143&23
hmm…
Guys,
I haven't the time to explain fully why I haven't the time to address your concerns and comments in a timely manner. Nice try, but I am not afraid of your criticism, and I surely am not avoiding anyone. I have been laid off, and in my last day at home I have been trying to post to no avail. The DSL sucks in my area, what can I say?!? Whoever thought they had the answer to my supposed "reluctance to answer", think again. I haven't been home for over a week by the way. I won't air my personal problems here, suffice it to say that I've been holed up in a hotel room attending to my taxes, jacked up business accounting, dealing with a relationship problem, etc. I do have a life. I HAVE spoken to my sifu regarding the article. He had wanted me to post here and with updates but more important things are at stake for regarding my life than a point of view that has everyone riled up. I'm sorry but me and mines need to eat, and I need to find a way to provide...
I haven't the time as well to read everyone's responses, at least today. I cannot expect you simple minded folk to understand the magnitude of my sudden problems. For those who gave me the benefit of the doubt (Cody), I thank you, honestly.
Let me close with these thoughts until I can get back to you guys.
-
I have been in phone contact with my sifu. I haven’t been able to see him because I am WAAAAY out of town. I haven’t had time to post updates on the site. Sorry, but THAT is the TRUTH.
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Sifu Lacey’s views are strong convictions that have nothing to do with money. extrajoseph, you should be ashamed of your little innuendos. Sifu Lacey is one of the most generous people I know, who teaches kung fu for his sheer love of the art. He does not benefit monetarily for writing this article. He did it to support the views of the CLF union in HK. He collects no tributes or fees from his other branches, and he is very selective of his students. He has stopped teaching children long ago, and the US gwoon has been a non-profit organization for almost a year now. Are these the acts of someone who wishes to gain money from this? I should now refrain to address you directly should I say something I might regret!
-
Sifu Lacey talked to me extensively via my cell phone while I was having lunch this week, regarding his conversation with Kong Hing Sigung regarding the article. Sigung’s comments were staggering. Rather than taking things out of context and butchering what I was told, I urge anyone who has a real grudge to air it with the Choi Lee Fut Union in HK. You might be surprised at what they have to say.
-
Anyone who doesn’t have a clue as to the real heart of the matter, read the article again with an open mind and sans animosity for people who are not within your group. Sifu Lacey stresses “free will”. He is on his podium, speaking just as people from the Chan family are out there, preaching their “faith”. I back my sifu out of pure loyalty as I have no “scientific evidence” on either fronts, and stayed outside the controversy until I saw some of the feedback. You people casting stones argue free will, and now you are showing your true colors by showing that yes, free speech is okay…unless it’s from a family outside Chan family. The hypocrisy is appaling.
PS: I just read more from “brother Joseph’s” posts.
I don’t know what your deal is, but here are some more little factoids for you to consider.
Sifu Lacey was told by Sigung Kong Hing, with the backing of the union, that he “did and said the right thing”. Look, I am no one in this organization but a loyal supporter of Sifu Dave, but if I keep pressing him with this, he’s gonna say “Who the hell is this guy?” Not to belittle anyone, but really now, are YOUR VIEWS shared by the whole CHAN “CAMP”? Please do regale me with more stories about how the Chan Family is holding back from “Embarassing” my sifu. Are you anyone that holds any prominence in the Chan Family’s inner circle? The reason I ask is, if this is so, why don’t you take your venomous tongue and do just what he asks and take this up with the CLFIU Ltd in HK? I try not to get involved but I am deeply offended at your comments and subtle suggestions that Sifu Dave does this for money/for himself/that the Union is a farce. I have been with sifu to HK, and the fraternity is alive and well. If you are no one in the organization, as I am, please get someone who is that shares your exact views, and let’s SET THIS MATTER STRAIGHT NOW! For the last time…Sifu is sharing his strong convictions, but STRESSES FREE WILL!
I support Sifu D Lacey’s views. Sifu D Lacey supports Sigung Kong Hing’s views. Sigung Kong Hing is a prominent member of the CLF Union in HK. If you guys think the Union is a farce or shooting a gun with blanks, then make a move and take it up with them as sifu says! As sifu said in his article, "it’s time you woke up for it’s obvious you have been living in your own corner of the world too long! "
Catcha in a minute.
k