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Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
21

k-no

I read your Sifu Dave Lacey’s article with great interest. Could you or your Sifu clarify Cheung Yim’s birthday for us? The article says:

"1836 - THE YEAR CHOY LAY FUT TOOK ROOT

It is interesting to note that it was ONLY after Cheung Yim (Cheung Hung Sing) had returned to King Mui village (Chan Village) in 1836 with the martial arts skills he acquired from the Shaolin monk Ng Ging Jung, known by the alias “Ching Cho Wor Seung” (Green Grass Monk) that Choy Lay Fut began to take root."

The Futshan Hung Sing Gwoon 150 anniversary Celebration Journal published last year said Cheung Yim was born in 1824.
The Chui Cheung Chinese Martial Art Gynasium Alumi Association Journal published the year before also said the same. So in 1839, Cheung Yim would have been 12 years old, unless the birth year given by these two authorities was wrong.

Do you or your sifu know for sure when and where was Cheung Yim born and when and where and how did he died? There are so many different versions and it seems the first thing we need to do is to establish clearly is his birth and death. Having just came back from China, I am sure his village will still be around and his grave would be somewhere to be found.

Choy Lee Fut history is only 160 yeards old and I am sure it can be checked and varified so we don’t have to keep throwing mud at each other.

With respect and in good faith,

JosephX

22

I wanted to ask this question too, about the date of Cheung Yim’s birth? I’ve heard that there’s not much info on his death but there must be info on when he was born, as Joseph said it was only 160 years ago. Also it is interesting that the Futshan Hung Sing Branch published the birth being in 1824, the Futshan Hung Sing Gwoon must have at least recorded their founder’s birthday.

I mean no disrespect to the Cheung Yim lineage, at the end of the day we all are CLF.

23

k-no

Another confusion about dates I have is the founding of the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon. We just had a 150 years anniversary celebration and the general concensus in Futsan and Hong Kong was that it was founded in 1851, yet your Sifu Dave Lacey said in his article:

“In 1839 Cheung Hung Sing founded the first “Hung Sing Gwoon” martial arts school in Futsan.”

Can you clarify this discrepancy for us? Please do not under any circumstances think that I am trying to stir up trouble for the CLF branches, I am talking about dates here and not personality.

Thanking you in advance.

JosephX

24

nospam,

Thanks for answering my questions, so now we have a branch of a branch of Bak Hsing, this time without the reference to CLF. However, I presume you still considered yourself a CLF man, so we are still “tong moon hing dye” as Sifu Dave Lacey puts it, bad “social etiqette” or not.

JosephX

25

extrajoseph,

The name was changed 2 generations ago. Perhaps things have changed since the name was change, but I am a practitioner of the style under that name. It is explained to me that there is significant difference, moreso than just adding new or changing old punches. Again, was it to a point where a new style was developed or that it removed itself from the realm of Choy Lee Fut philosophy? I guess at least one person thought so.

But, yes…I often use Choy & Lee when explaining the style. Do I consider myself a Choy Lee Fut practitioner? We do not disregard our past, but opine that Choy Lee Fut Gar and Bak Hsing Fut Gar are two very different styles that share a common heritage and through association of that heritage is more easily identifiable to the Chinese martial art establishment/community. I am a product of my environment…hahaha.

nospam.
:cool:

26

nospam,

Yes, I guess we are all products of our environment, that is why we now have MacDonald instead of hamburgers, KFC instead of fried chickens, Nike instead of shoes and Starbuck instead of coffee shops, etc.

Everything rests with a brand name, even our heritage. To be an individual is to have a name that sets us apart.

You said “hahaha”, but I don’t find all this funny, I find it sad but has to accept the fact that the fragmentation of our society is a sign of our time.

At least I know the next time you use the term Choy Lee Fut, you are using it for identification purpose only, you are in fact doing something very different.

JosephX

27

Yeah - different strokes for different folks.

I think too many people get bent out of shape just cause someone says or does something out of the norm. Look at Temple Kung Fu, for instance. But ya know what? They’re still around. What I think about them hasn’t had an impact, besides wanting to hurl my two-all-beef-patties-special sauce-lettuce-pickle-unions all on a sesame seed bun, whenever I see their commercial!

:slight_smile:

nospam.
:cool:

28

When I see CLF in films, or books I recognise everything from my training in the choy lay fut buck sing gwoon in Melbourne (Sifu Dave Lacey). Having said that there are a few things that we were taught that I have not seen at all. But there is not enough difference to call it a completely different system. I find the term Buck Sing Gwoon (taking gwoon to mean school) an adequate description - just a different school of the same system.

29

nospam,

So what we think don’t matter, what matters is commercial success.

Yeah - different strokes for different folks.

JosephX

30

extrajoseph,

I’d imagine what matters is definable by the individual alone.

anton,

I hear ya. I say tomato, you say tomatoe…but they’re both a vegetable..or is that a fruit?

:wink:

nospam.
:cool:

31

nospam,

Hmm, I got it!

People in the past has been selling the good old fashion tomatoe as vegetable and now you are going to sell it as a piece of fruit and call it to-ma-to.

You can get more money for a piece of fruit. Right? How devilishly clever!

Thank you! Thank you! thank you! Now I can see the true benefit of westernizing Kung Fu.

JosephX

32

Wow.

Well, I prefer classic coke, myself.

nospam.
:cool:

33

nospam,

What I want to know is what we can do with the old fashion water pipe that my sifu used to smoke with? How can we repakage it and what name can we give it to make it sound “modern” and “western”? How about Buddha Pipe or Fut Doe? Anything with Buddha always sells, it has a spiritual ring to it. Have you been to the Buddha Bar in Paris? It is always packed. May be adding the word Classic in front of it will also help. People don’t drink Coke any more, they drink Classic Coke (your favourite drink). Classic Buddha Pipe sounds pretty cool for an old fashion water pipe. These days we have to do something out of the norm to make a buck. Don’t you think?

JosephX

Just in case you are going to get mad with me like bean curd, this is all a joke, no disrespect is intended, even though there is a bit of sarcasm involved. Hey, if we can not laugh at ourselves, what is the point of humour?

34

Joseph you pick the point in actual marketing based high return on investments industries.:smiley:

35

Who am I to deprive someone of a little good natured humor. Go for it.

:eek:

nospam.
:cool:

36

After the funny bit, here is the serious part, I can’t wait for the abusive replies.

IMHO, a large part of the CLF politics we are witnessing at present is the result of the commercialization of traditional Kung Fu in the west, and CLF is not the only traditional system under assault by the market forces.

To some CLF practitioners, there is a fear that if we acknowledge Chan Heung as the sole founder of CLF, then the Chan Family will be the only one who has the “brand name” and that is not good for business when you are not part of the family lineage. This is not true of course, but the irrational mind of money tells us we cannot let one family dominate the market by a name.

So they have to knock Chan Heung off the pedestal and install Cheung Yim, first as a co-founder and then as the alternative sole founder with Chan Heung as one of the teachers. Since Cheung Yim does not have any offsprings by blood, the smart entrepreneurs can set up their own brands using traditional CLF as a point of lineage/reference. Then everybody wins.

If we are really concerned with the true history of CLF then it is very easy to verify, but they don’t want to do this, it is too easy and would give the game away. Instead the Cheung Yim camp used our belief system (it is politically incorrect to question a person’s faith, therefore it will be safe from scrutiny) and group consensus to get around the problem. They tell us we can never get to the bottom of history so we should believe in whatever we want to believe in and then they set up a committee of elders (none from the Chan family or Heroic Victory Hung Sing of course) and put out rulings of what the proper “social etiquette” (meaning what we should believe in) should be and if the students objected then they should go to Hong Kong to face these elders wrath.

What happens to historical research, critical analysis and thinking for yourself?

Before the spread of CLF widely from China/Hong Kong to the west, everyone accepted Chan Heung as the sole founder. Most of the so-called elders now were young members of the Association in Memory of Chan Heung (notice they didn’t have one for Cheung Yim then). They didn’t dare to then and there was no need to rock the boat. But now money is involved since most of the elders now have a lot of students in the west and some of them have migrated to the west themselves. They are now in the driver’s seat and there is only Chen Yong-Fa to deal with, so off you go Chan Heung - he has became a business “liability".

The fight between Futsan and King Mui as the place of origin is also connected with money. Each place wants to become the place of pilgrimage for the rich CLF practitioners from the west who will bring money and prestige. As a result, we will see a continue struggle between the two camps in this front as well. Master Lacey has fired the first shot, and I can see this coming clearly after my trip to China recently.

If I have to bet my money on the outcome, I have to put my odds on the Cheung Yim camp, because money will always win over history and tradition. Sad but that is the sign of out time. Our mind is controlled by brand names and by advertising and propaganda. Nothing is sacred any more, not even our belief and faith - they get manipulated as well. Every thing comes down to money; we can kiss history and tradition good bye.

So, so-long Chan Heung Gong. Long live Money and the New History!

JosephX

37

Joseph X,
Perhaps I’m not grasping the magnitude of this issue, but I don’t think Sifu Lacey speaks on behalf of all folks from the Cheung Yim lineage. It seems that many of the Cheung Yim Lineage folks pay full credit to Chan Heung and dub Cheung Yim as second generation CLF…so I doubt that the CLF enterpreneurs in the west like Tat Mau Wong would be compelled enough by that article to change the history that he’s taught for years (ie, Chan Heung being the founder, and Cheung Yim a student).

But again, I may not be grasping the magnitude of this issue. Have you heard rumblings of other CLF sifus (Cheung Yim Lineage) saying that they agree with Lacey and should start rewriting history? If you have, then I concede to your point.

38

123

Interesting enough, many of the “new breed” come from the Tarm Sarm’s lineage. I hate naming names, but Sifu Chui Kwang-Yuan, son of Chui Cheung is one of the driving force behind the rewriting of history. He has many students in the States and in South America. Of course American Hung Sing is another example.

I doubted if clever entrepreneurs like Wong Tat-Mau would ever show his hands until the coast is clear. He is a very intelligent and pragmatic person and he is not going to give the game away so early.

Of course, there is the other alternative of dropping the name CLF but borrow its brand power by claiming that they have transcended or refined CLF to the point where it is no longer CLF. But still they make sure we can see a close association. Choi Li Ho Fut and Bak Sing Fut Gar are 2 examples I can think of.

I think the magnitude is there and judging from the reactions from this board, it is enough to worry me greatly. I hope my judgement is wrong.

JosephX

39

I have all the respect for the fame of sifu Dave Lacey, but I think that this article it is not to diplomatic.
I prefer a lot more his brother, sifu Vince Lacey article on the same matter. It is a very intelligent view of see the things.www.buksing.com/personal_message.html

40

Hi there,

You have the wrong use of “HSING” on your title page.

HSING is mandarin such as “HSING YI”
Cantonese for HSING YI would be “xing yi”
It should read " SING"

Buk Sing Fut Gar

Other than that, add some video clips!!