Kung Fu is not just about balancing the body but finding mental balance as well…
“Like lotuses in the pond we are all developing at different levels.”
Fu-pow. he seems a bit p#$$£d off with you for some reason.
Ok I’m gonna address this piece by piece…
That dreaded name “Ching Cho” is what triggered you Chan Clan hardliners to wage a war of words on the net in an attempt to debunk the legacy of Cheung Hung Sing and the history of Choy Lay Fut and the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon.
Ok…I’m not from the Chan Family Branch…I’m from the Hung Sing branch. I’ve never even met any Chan Family members before, only talked to them on the internet. I don’t really know Joseph’s story but I don’t think he is really intimately tied to the Chan Family.
WHO started this “war of words” on the internet - NOT ME! You people say you want to tell your story but when I tell mine, you don’t like it? Someone stated I’m doing it to embarrass others (of the Chan Clan I presume) - why? Don’t you like me pointing out the discrepancies in the Chan Clan’s own history on CLF and asking legitimate questions and wanting answers? Are you telling me that only the Chan Clan has the right to discredit others (not of the Chan Family CLF) and ask pertinent questions?! Who told you that you have a MONOPOLY on Choy Lay Fut!? CHING CHO, PLEASE DISAPPEAR - YOU’RE RUINING THE CHAN CLAN’S CLF HISTORY!
Actually, he’s the one telling us not to talk about it. We are just having an open and honest conversation and comparing notes. Joseph has made some disparaging remarks but for the most part I think everyone’s been very civil with exception of Sifu Dave. Even Sifu Frank is taking things with a grain of salt.
I have already answered your questions on the monk Ching Cho (Green Grass Monk) and told you his real name (Cai Dezong), where he came from, who he is and how he got the name “Ching Cho” (Qingcao in Mandarin). Of course you want his name to disappear and erased from your CLF historical records - that would make Chan Heung the only martial arts teacher of Cheung Yim! With the monk Cai Dezong (“Ching Cho”) out of the picture it would be easy to convince everyone that Choy Lay Fut martial arts was the sole work of Chan Heung. You’d love that, wouldn’t you! Is the Green Grass Monk really the issue? I think not - you are! Read carefully again the paragraph titled “THE MONK CHING CHO IS NO MYTH!” and answer the questions I have given you at the end of the paragraph.
He never answered any questions…I mean not really. We got 8 pages of gobbilty gook and I really couldn’t make heads or tails of it. I don’t care which side is correct, but I am curious as to the truth. I really have nothing to gain or lose either way. I’m from the Hung Sing branch so actually I guess I SHOULD be supporting the Ching Cho story.
- By the way, “YAU” means “HAVE” and “SUM” means “heart” in Cantonese! What is Yau SAM? Where did you learn your Cantonese! In Cantonese when someone says, “Nay Yau Sum” it translates “you have heart” but the real meaning behind it is “you’re kind hearted”. Fu pow is telling everyone that he has “much heart”. “Much heart” - what does that mean?
Sorry, I don’t speak fluent Cantonese. Sam and Sum are just different romanizations. The phrase was explained to me as “Much Heart.”
- You (fu pow) are definitely not a Hung Sing CLF disciple as you claim to be. I don’t think you even know what lineage you belong to! You’re one of the many confused, naive and conceited latter generation of CLF followers who think you know more about the history on CLF and it’s ancestors than the CLF elders themselves! Afterall, you did say and I quote - “We no longer have to rely on our elders as the only source of information about our style. We can compare information and come to our own conclusions. It’s very cool when you think about it!”- unquote. WOW! What you’re telling us is that old timers like Kong Hing, Lun Chee, Chan Yong Fa, Doc Fei Wong, Chia Yan Soon, Poon Sing, Chui Kwong Yuen, Lai Hung, Lee Siu Hung, Mak Hin Fai, Wong Tat Mau and myself can step down and let people of your generation take over the teaching of CLF and it’s history so you all can make a mockery of it! Martial artists like you belong in the zoo! You have no respect for your own sifu, your sigung and elders!?
Well I am a Hung Sing practitioner. Disciple..hmmmm…not really sure, I’m definitely not a Sifu yet. As for going against my elders… I’m really not because Lee Koon Hung’s version of the history is different than either the Chen Yong Fa version or the latest Hung Sing version. Lee Koon Hung’s version places Chan Heung in his rightful place as the founder, although it does mention Ching Cho as a teacher. My Sifu gave me the same lineage. And I believe that Poon Sing also follows the same lineage with Chan Heung as founder. Lee Koon Hung in his infinite wisdom recognized that all branches could only be united when they recognized Chan Heung as the founder. I respect my kung fu elders as martial artists and some of them as upstanding individuals but that doesn’t necessarily make them historical experts. And they have a lot more to gain or lose at this at this point making them way less objective.
- How can it be that the “Chan Heung Memorial Association” in Hong Kong be dominated by the Buck Sing elders?! You mean that the Chan Clan elders are not capable of heading their own association -why? Are you saying that there’s not enough authoritative Chan Clan elders to hold all the senior positions of the CHAN HEUNG ASSOCIATION in Hong Kong? I do not believe that and I think it’s a personal insult to the Chan Family CLF by you saying that the Buck Sing elders are pulling all the strings! Don’t you think that’s a ridiculous statement? The Buck Sing elders in Hong Kong have their own association “The Choy Lay Fut Buck Sing Association Ltd.” (haven’t you read Chapter 1’s"Hong Kong Choy Lay Fut Associations"?). If you are implying that the elders of the Hung Sing and Buck Sing branches are the Chiefs of ALL the CLF associations in Hong Kong, then you’re not giving much credit to the Chan Clan schools in Hong Kong! Since you know so much, can you tell us who is President of the “Chan Heung Memorial Association” in Hong Kong? If he is not a Chan Clan elder, then WHY? Surely you’re not going to tell us that it’s because the “hatchetmen” of the Buck Sing triad are controlling all the CLF associations in Hong Kong! I suppose you’re going to tell us that in the CLFKFIU Ltd. ALL the senior positions are held by the Hung Sing and Buck Sing elders. If that is true - how did that come about? Did I ever say that the Buck Sing branch in Hong Kong gained control of the Chan Heung Memorial Association or the CLFKFIU Ltd. - I didn’t! I merely stated that because of it’s reputation (in the martial arts conflicts between kung fu schools of different styles) the Buck Sing schools gained enormous fame because they took part in rival martial arts challenge matches to defend the honor of CLF martial arts. This is why the Buck Sing schools became the most powerful and influential of Hong Kong’s CLF branches in the 1950’s - 1970’s. Why didn’t people of your branch go out and take on these challengers in defense of Choy Lay Fut’s honor?! The Buck Sing pugilists had to do the dirty work for you and all you people can do is to stab us in the back!!?
Yeah who’s conceited here. Wow, if Baksing is so much better and more famous than sign me right up. You’ll notice he never really addresses the question of who actually controls these organizations. He never refutes that they are controlled by the Baksing people. Who is the president of the Chan Heung memorial association? I’d like to know. Who is the decision making body for these organizations? Spell it out for us Sifu Lacey!!! This was an important point that Joseph brought up and we’ve never gotten a straight answer in any of these rants.
- Your statement -“If the Buksing people would simply concede to the fact that Chan Heung is the founder of CLF and Cheung Yim simply a student then we could all just relax.” - unquote. Well, that would certainly solve the dispute and rid you of your splitting headache, wouldn’t it now? By the way, what is wrong with changing that statement you made (which I just quoted) to - “If the Chan Clan people would simply concede to the fact that Cheung Hung Sing is the founder of CLF and that Chan Heung was simply one of his teachers then we could all just relax”? Now, don’t you agree that sounds a lot better!? You a Hung Sing CLF student?! People like you make me sick! You claim to be a Hung Sing CLF student (of mixed lineage) but you denounce Chueng Hung Sing as the “Chong Pai Jung Si” (Originator of the Style) and the existence of Ching Cho (Cheung’s teacher). This clearly shows you don’t even know the history of your own CLF lineage! You know what you really are? You’re a “farn gwat jai” and an ignorant one at that!!!?
Actually, that’s your lineage Sifu Dave. Our lineage doesn’t recognized Jeong Yim as the founder. The founder of our branch perhaps but not of all of CLF. This is a new assertion based on a god**** NOVEL for godsakes!!! No one was saying this until the last 30 years. CLF has a 150 year history.
.
More to come…good lord…:rolleyes:
Dave Lacey is right about that this thing should be settled on master level and then release an official statement of whatever the outcome is. If the people making the statement were the heads of each main branch then no one would have nothing against it. The problem with that association in HK is that no one has ever heard of it or the people in it, so any announcement they make, doesn’t really mean anything. I hope this thing gets cleared out. I just want the truth.
However, I hope people would realize that anything we say here is only our own opinion. If I say something, it’s not the official view of the Chan family branch. It’s my own opinion and I have all the rights to say it. The same applies to Fu pow as well. He doesn’t represent the whole american hung sing branch, when he says something. So he can’t really be accused of going over his sifus head, even if Dave Lacey is in the receiving end. After all, when Mr. Lacey writes something in the internet, it’s open for discussion. Everyone is equal in internet discussion. Why? most of the time we don’t know who were talking to. But once again, this is only my view and people might not agree with me.
Maybe I should make that a disclaimer..
Fu pow:
Good luck and keep it cool =)
premier
Since you have clearly shown your own stupid ignorance of the Hung Sing CLF martial arts history without even realizing you have disrespected your true lineage (WHICH YOU STATED IS HUNG SING and NOT of the CHAN FAMILY branch) it’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about when you say you are not of the Chan Clan branch and at the same time you’re denouncing Cheung Hung Sing’s legacy. How did you get so screwed up in the head?! You really should see a shrink!
Now that your buddy “Yutyeesam” has revealed who your sigung is, I can help sort out your lineage for you. Your sigung is Master Lee Koon Hung, right? Do you know who is his sifu? Koon Hung’s sifu is Poon Sing and he also learnt from Poon Sing’s father Poon Dik. I know Poon Sing very well and have met him on many occasions (including at his home) in Hong Kong and Singapore. In Hong Kong everyone knows that Poon Sing is of the Hung Sing (Cheung Hung Sing) branch but of course you wouldn’t know. Poon Sing is a very close CLF comrade of my sifu Kong Hing and he has been present at every Buck Sing CLF and Tarm Sarm Memorial celebration held in Hong Kong as well as those organized by the Singapore Hong Sheng Koon. If Poon Dik and Poon Sing are not Lee Koon Hung’s first original CKF teachers then tell me who is? I’ve known Lee Koon Hung very well for many years. In fact he told me he was even there at my dueling match with a Wing Chun master in Hong Kong in 1961. I also know his top students Mak Hin Fai, Lee Siu Hung (his brother) and Wong Tat Mau well and we have a close bond of friendship between us. We were all together at the 2001 celebration of the Hong Sheng Koon’s 36th Anniversary and Global CLF gathering in Singapore. Master Poon Sing was also there. Where were you guys? By the way, who is your sifu? I like to know if he is backing up your bull****.
Thanks for the insults Sifu Lacey. Wow what a gentleman.
My lineage goes like this.
Chan Heung-Jeong Yim-Leung Guai-Poon Dik-Poon Sing-Lee Koon Hung-?-?.
I’m very aware of my lineage and that’s why I’m asking these question and talking about it. I’d tell you my Sifu’s name but I’d rather not drag him into this. And I never stated anywhere that I speak for my Sifu or anyone but myself. As to the relationship of Poon Sing and Kong Hing I have no way to verify this. I guess I could ask my Sifu, but again I don’t really want to involve him.
I totally agree with “bean curd” 100% about what he said to you and I quote - “fu pow, if ever there was a fan guak chai - you are it!” No truer words have ever been spoken! You know why? Because you are a traitor to your own true martial arts heritage - the Hung Sing CLF martial arts of Cheung Hung Sing! Ask Tat Mau Wong if he’s a Hung Sing CLF man. He sure is 'cos he has told me that himself. You not only do not know your own martial arts (Hung Sing CLF?) history, you don’t even know what you’re implying when you speak you dumb *******!
What’s this crap about - “He who knows does not speak; he who speaks does not know”. What are you trying to tell us? That YOU fu pow have spoken but YOU don’t know ****! You didn’t have to tell us that - we already know you’re dumb!
Again, what a gentleman.
THE POOR DISILLUSIONED fu-pow
Oh - about this prophesy of yours concerning the “outlook of the Chan Heung Memorial Association MAY change quickly” -unquote. When is that going to happen? I can’t wait to celebrate! I hope sifu Chan Yong Fa will get elected as the Association’s new President. At least he’s a talented and intelligent man and he is the keeper of the Chan Family CLF. Oh no! Don’t tell me the Chan Clan is going to elect YOU president - God forbid! Hey, wait a minute - didn’t you tell us you’re a Hung Sing student!?? Just what are you?! Then why are you so excited about the Chan Heung Memorial Association?! Since you claim not to be of the Chan Family branch and you have also denounced Ching Cho and the Hung Sing martial arts of Cheung Hung Sing and also you’re definitely not of the Buck Sing branch - then we must presume you belong to the “Mo Lunn Sing” (which literally means “no f***ing memory”) branch! Students like you are a disgrace to their sifu!You claim to be a"Hung Sing" CLF studentthen why are you so ****ed off with the CLF KF IU Ltd.'s clairification on WHO is the true founder of CLF.
Yes Sifu Dave. As I stated before I am from the Hung Sing branch and I am. However, the CLF Family is very incestuous. No one has a “pure” lineage. Part of what makes CLF great is that with so many practitioners and branches there is little chance our art will die out.
Poor fu pow - he doesn’t know who he is or where he belongs! You’ve already been told by “bean curd” and myself who you are - you’re a lowdown slimy “farn gwat jai”! As to where you belong - you belong in the asylum with your cellmate joseph! You two deserve each other! Be careful in there - I hear some of the orderlies, psychiatrists and doctors are hatchetmen of the 14K! I guess your mate joseph had already warned you about that! By the way, some staff members at the loony bin in Canada belong to the 14K triad but in the US, the asylums are all run by the Buck Sing triads. You’re gonna love the electric shock treatment they give you - it guarantees to soothe your tormented minds!
By the way, do you an joeseph know the history on the Triads - when and how ther originated? Did you know that the monks gave these rebles sanctuary at the Shaolin Temple and that the monks were sympathezers of the Triads? Do you want me to give you the history on that.
Kind of lost me here. The rest is kind of directed more towards Joseph more than me so I’ll let him comment when he gets a chance.
The purpose of my posting this link here is that I want to keep things out in the open as much as possible.
Let me state my formal position to clear up any misconceptions.
It is my intention to try to unite, not divide the branches of CLF any further. I have a great interest in learning as much as I can from all branches of CLF. I study CLF…period. I want to know everything about the art regardless of which branch, I want to know it’s history, the internal, the external, all the weapons, theories and forms. I feel that others should pursue this same path and not feel constrained to one teacher or one branch. This is why CLF thrives today because of the interplay between all the branches and teachers. If you look at any CLF lineage you will see that no one’s lineage is “pure.” There is a lot of cross over from many generations.
My Sifu will always be my Sifu and It is important to be respectful to your teacher and your kung fu brothers but this loyalty should not interfere with your ability to think for yourself. Martial arts, like many things in life has a large individual component to it. It is largely up to the individual to get the most out of their chosen art. I’m not going to be the person that says “oh, that guys doing Chan Family CLF, he sucks” or that guy is “buksing” he must be a real *******. I’m not going to hide behind my lineage or my Sifu. When I see another CLF practitioner perform I’ll judge the persons kung fu on …drum roll please…his/her kung fu…his hard work and effort…and thought that he has put into his art.
Fu Pow maybe you should email Sifu Dave privately and straighten out this misunderstanding.
I am not really going to get into this discussion since it does not really involve me but I would like to set the record straight: Poon Sing was not Lee Koon Hung’s sifu. I know in Fut San it says this however this is not correct and is a bit of a sore spot within our kung fu family.
Lee Koon Hung first followed Poon Dik, so as goes chinese culture Poon Dik is his “sifu”. After Poon Dik died he learned very little from Poon Sing instead learning from Poon Dik’s top two students Leung Sai and Chow Bing. Later in his 30s he followed his sisuk So Kam Fook (Poon Dik’s sidai). Lee Koon Hung had quite a few sifus of CLF as you can see but his true “sifu” for namesake would be Poon Dik.
Now Poon Dik followed Leung Kwai and Wong Fook. Wong Fook followed Chan Koon Pak and Leung Kwai followed both Cheong Yim and Chan Koon Pak, thus this is where our mixed lineage comes from. There was even some suggestion made that Poon Dik may have had some interaction with Tarm Sam, but we are not sure.
Peace.
I think that the whole thing is funny and ridiculous. You remember in sixth grade when that bully said “meet me after school at the bike racks. I’m gonna beat you up.” That’s about the level of maturity here…from a supposed “Sifu.” I can’t believe any real Sifu would act in this way. Its like the worst kind of contradiction…
And hey, thanks for that info CLF Nole. I know you had mentioned those names before but I hadn’t put it all together. The lineage that I have from my Sifu lists Poon Sing as the main teacher of Lee Koon Hung. So that’s the one I usually discuss. That’s the lineage on our website also. There is an article on Alec Morris’s website that talks about LKH learning from the students you mentioned.
I am actually working on a family tree as we speak for all of CLF, putting all the names together. That’s how I know there is a lot of cross over from the different branches. People like Sifu Lacey want to draw the lines very clearly when in fact they are really very blurred.
One day down the line I’m hoping to write a book about CLF so all of this really is just preliminary research.
Peace, Yau Sam and love to all my kung fu brothers. Yes, even you Sifu Dave…
lacey
What “REAL” fights did the Laceys have when they were in Perth,and who with.?This Franko guy sounds like a real hard ass.!!
Hey Fu-Pow, what is the url of your website?, also is thier a main CLF forum out thier for the public, like hungga.net has for thier style?.
new thread i can speak
fu pow,
i read what you write, but you not understand what edicate is, this is plain and simple to see. i wish to not go into another debate on such things, but this i will say and i would kindly like your response.
i have read dave lacey sifu writings on his site. fu pow you must look at how thing have been written. through whole writting, and let us not go into strong words used, as you have done same, maybe in different way, but none the less, same intent.
dave sifu ( i call dave - sifu now as i do not wish anyone to think i own him like joseph said in previous discussion ) speaks with elder thinking, this is very clear, much of what he has written comes from faliel piety of elders and ancestors, if you don’t understand this then there is noway i can explain it to you, you must seek guidence from your sifu to show you this manner of thinking.
i do not wish to discus the entire writting but wish to point out one thing and one thing only, dave sifu states clearly that you should take yourself, your sifu and sigung if not others to hong kong and discuss in person your issues with dave’s version of CLF history. i say daves version only to clarify that discussion is due to dave sifu coming out with version while others have not yet done so, except for frank, but this thread on dave sifu not frank.
what dave sifu ask, this is not a new request, this from old times and clearly show dave sifu complete understanding of decorum required to bring finality to such words being used in open forum
he clearly also understand that this forum is a OPEN forum and as such indicate clearly that witness, protection can and will be forth coming, again this is very traditional design of meetings when things start in open and must stay in open, so nothing can be used or changed if in hidden speaking.
i say now to you, instead of bring such things up, which i now feel clearly you do to cause issue with dave sifu, please do that which is correct and now meet as dave sifu says FACE TO FACE.
if your conviction on finding truth is as strong as you say it is, then this request by dave sifu is corrrect and you have only two choice. 1. do not go and therefore your words are worthless as your action show conviction of your belief, or 2. go and confront,which again show clearly your conviction for truth.
it is very simple and easy to do.
please do not say, " why should i go, what is dave sifu to CLF??"
i will answer this for you. dave sifu comes from very strong/loyal/true and correct lineage. his sifu, sigung and soforth is impecable. dave sifu clearly also understand that the words he use also bring attention to his sifu and elders, if he therefore is not correct in truth or manner, then he not only bring shame to himself, but also his lineage alway back to tam sam
dave sifu understand this but do you fu pow ???
it is for this reason then you must decide to either meet as requested by dave sifu or you must walk away from your words to him.
please remember we are talking gung fu here, not everyone treat gung fu as a game, there is much honour in the art we play, respect is paramount in both words we use and actions we take.
if joseph read this ( are you back from hong kong ?? ) i suggest the same to you, this has gone on far long enough, don’t you think ??
also i wish to clarify to everyone who read this, at this point in time dave sifu does not know who i am, so what he write of me, i find pleasing and thank him for his kind words, but to others who may say i am known to him, this is not true.
Bean Curd-
I appreciate your civilized tone. However, I disagree with you that I have any responsibility to:
a) Reveal my indentity to Sifu Dave
b) Go to Hong Kong to discuss this with anyone
c) Stop talking about issues like Ching Cho.
It’s a free world. I can do and say whatever I want and my paths of action are not going to be dictated by Sifu Lacey. Sifu Dave is trying to “trick” me into a face to face encounter by calling me a pu$$y if I don’t meet with him “face to face”. This is a grade school tactic. What do I gain from a face-to-face encounter?..A scolding from Sifu Dave?
I will agree with Sifu Dave on one point. There needs to be a meeting at the highest level, from all the branches. It needs to be a closed door meeting and it must last until some resolution is passed. We saw the same set of events happen in the Hung Ga family between the Tong Fung and Lam Sai Wing branches. Now all their websites have a joint resolution from Lam Chan Fai and Frank Yee. You can check it out at hungkuen.net.
Even if we never resolve the issue of Ching Cho their needs to be more harmony between the branches. There needs to be a resolution. Come on people.. get it together… I need to learn those internal sets…
fu pow,
sadly i read a response from you which i thought would come, from what i write, a predictable reply.
from what you write, your theme is clear, why should you meet with dave and what outcome will be of benifiet to you. would all you recieve from dave is a " scolding " you write.
strange words with someone of your conviction. if you go to OPEN discussion, and you are correct, then is it not clear that the scolding would come from you and your family. where would dave and his family hide if they are wrong and you are right.
what he ask you to do is a gamble on his part, pure and simple, so again if you are right, then the lose of face to dave is extreme, so i do not see how you can say what you have.
you say " it is a free world ", where is it a free world. do you not have laws in your country, that tell you what you can and cannot do, do you come from a family that permits you to do WHATEVER you want , please - free world - is not such a thing.
do you compare your free world to that of a country that you percieve to be less fortunate in open thought - what are your examples.
if you speak of FREE WORLD in that you can say whatever you like, in the fashion of how you are now conducting yourself, then let me assure you, for the many years i have played the arts, i have never ever heard an elder, senior, or older brother tell younger ones to not speak their mind, it is only the dictation of decorum that words can be expressed outside, and in what fashion.
you try to make out that your mission is to find the truth and you will not be stopped, again this sort of thing has been around for more years than i can remember, all is discussed, so if you are impling that you are being asked to stop and follow a PARTY line,then you have delusion of thought on this matter.
as to hung kuen and what you write, here again i see things you clearly no nothing about and what you read is from sites. why should i go to a site on net, i just talk to people concerned in the matter - can you ???
you say things in hung kuen over, then explain to me why on many sites still conflict up. you also say the discussion between yee chi wai si and lam chun fai si was from ALL hung kuen family, as you write " tang fong clan and lam sai wing clan ", who was also there when discussion on matter spoken which other family present ??? do you even know how meeting took place ??
what yee chi wai si tried to do is exellent and comendable action on his part, however not all clan was there to discuss matter and lam jo si is not representitive of all hung kuen lam sai wing branch.
you talk so much of things you don’t know, why do you do this.
only comparision of choi li fut and hung kuen situation here, is that what lay dai wai si try to do is similiar to what yee chi wai si try to do, only people different and all talk the way they want.
it is apparent that what ever i write to you is on wasted ears or a person who has yet to understand - family, i can only hope one day when you look back at the actions you have taken, you will realise what you wish for is not wrong, but how you have carried yourself is of not correct manner.
with joseph ( yu ) all i will say, is if he is the generation he says he is then he should know better and not lead younger ones astray.
everyone who is under lam sai wing lineage calls lam jo, si gung or si bak and no less, regardless of what claims that were made he was senior to all under lsw. so all under lsw hung ga lineage is represented thru lam jo.
all others is also respected as hung ga. and claims were put aside.
clf gatherings in hong kong were always in the new territories or remote outside of hong kong. a good percentage the gatherings ended up in big fights about lineage or just too much drinking. this is with the elders of clf.
today the hung ga or clf tradition of bickering continues on the internet. what a shame!
Enough!!!
I’ve had enough. This is a ridiculous conversation that just keeps getting more ridiculous.
There’s never going to be any resolution if we just keep tossing back insults and innuendos.
And, bean curd, who the **** are you lecture me about what and what isn’t acceptable? To put it bluntly…
bite my shorts!!!
haha that was pretty immature.
what sifu lacey posts in respect of u fu pow and joseph should be settled between your CLF ppl. the way u guys are going about this is pretty shameful and cowardly and brings alot of bad publicity to your pai.
Diego,
There is a CLF Forum at the Chan Family CLF site www.clfma.com
what sifu lacey posts in respect of u fu pow and joseph should be settled between your CLF ppl. the way u guys are going about this is pretty shameful and cowardly and brings alot of bad publicity to your pai.
Agreed. I should have never posted Sifu Dave’s latest response. I encourage other people not to post his stuff here if there are future responses. If he wants to participate in the conversation he should just start posting on the forum. Posting his stuff here just continues to exacerbate the situation.
However, I don’t think that we should necessarily stop talking about CLF history or politics on the forum. Its a great way for us to find out whats going on and about our history and compare notes. That was my intention from the begginning, I don’t know how this turned into the mudslinging that it is now.
Joseph’s goals may differ from mine, so I can’t speak for him.
This is my last post on this thread.
Respect To Elders
Fu Pow,
It is true that this is the internet and we can all speak freely about our thought or ideas. However, if we are to be traditional in our ways and understand the importances of Mo Duk, then it is best that we hold our tongues.
There are many things such as, methods, philosophy and history which we as practioners of our choosen pai obtain from our sifu. It is up to us to uphold that which was passed on to us. But there are times when what you have learned to believe is in contradiction to someone elses belief even though you are of the same pai. This will sometimes cause confusion with some and with others it may cause anger.
This brings up the issue of seniority or generation within your pai. Although you are of a younger generation than Lacey Sifu and Bean Curd, you do not give them the respect that they deserve. You being from a younger generation should not question them no matter what you feelings are. Do you represent your Sifu in your dialogue on this forum? If you do not, it may be a good thing to speak with your Sifu on the matters which you discuss on this forum. Both Dave Lacey and Bean Curd have been apart of the Choy Lay Fut family for an extend amount of time which you are nowhere near their levels of understanding.
I am not writing this to speak in a negative way to you, but to try to enlighten you on your position at this time. Before posting such contraverses on the web, even though it allows free speech, it is best to get the blessings from your Sifu to do so.
Choy Lay Fut has a great history and more than one branch, so it is common that there will be some difference between them. Free speech is one thing, but it is a lower standard than proper ettiquette.
Peace
Je Lei Sifu
Je Lei Sifu
What you say is true. However, if Dave Lacey is supposed to represent an older and more authoritative view of CLF, then what the h@ll is all that immature rambling on his website all about?!
He won’t front up to the discussions here, yet writes these rantings on his own website, insulting and digging like a 12 year old.
Respect is owed, but in this day and age it’s also earned. Dave Lacey is not really doing anything to promote respect for himself or CLF.
Quite frankly, Fu Pow and Joseph are showing more maturity and respect than Dave Lacey at the moment.
very hard to do this.
Je Lei Sifu, I take no side in terms of historical perspective. My eyebrows raise here and there, but I prefer to take a wait and see attitude, and hope that no one gets injured in the historical/political fracas which might approach behind the scenes on more senior levels.
While there has been discourse which might have been better said Differently, on all sides, I think each person has a right to expression for which no permission need be asked, unless that person is clearly speaking for other than himself. If someone chooses to follow the mode of having the Sifu give permission for one to ask certain questions or to state things in a certain way, then that is a free choice. To make things more “correct,” it might be preferable to say up front that one is following this way, or coming forward independently. I have seen this done. It is an individual decision, and if one has no problem dealing with his teacher after participating freely on the Internet, I don’t think anyone else should either. I think Fu-Pow did well in his last post to this thread, which was probably not easy for him to add.
There have been many discussions on these boards and others re respect and the right to question. even on respect and whether one, as a law enforcement officer, would give a speeding ticket to someone after finding out he/she was your Sifu. I was frankly horrified at the equivalence given to respect and favoritism, sometimes having its basis in fear. The root seems to be in the philosophical and practical subordination of the group to the “respected” leader, as a given. There is a difference between other views of respect and the traditional domination which you seek to enforce on the basis of hierarchy. From an idealistic point of view, this (in terms of not questioning because there is no need to do so, etc.) can be a beautiful thing. However, often there is a need, a necessity, or simply a healthy curiousity to speak or act independently.
I’ll tell you something else. I learned from a little girl what respect means. It has nothing to do with who founded or was said to have founded or who can beat up who with fists and spells. It’s knowing that everyone (just about) has a heart that can break. That’s respect! with it’s root in compassion. The rest is a way, a tradition, a very important view of the world by one or by many groups, but not equivalent to this general human definition I have given, which is independent of station.
While I am not Asian, I am well aware that I say here goes against the grain. I don’t need a lecture on it. It is likely there will always be leaders, because, for one thing, some are naturally followers. Yet, the nature of the follower needs to evolve, at least for some who wish to follow this way, to allow for creative thinking and questioning without consequence. In fact, it already has. There is a lot of room for growth there, and for hope. If the mere questioning (nevermind anything else) is thought to undermine the leader or power source, I’d say there might be a problem. This is my view.
I am stating how I feel, Je Lei Sifu. I am feeling that the stratification you speak of and support is part of what causes the anger. The confusion can come from many sources. The followers: It can be like standing on a chess board and waiting for the big hand to descend. So, the chess pieces are talking, and looking up, instead of bowing their heads. They’re wondering what the previous moves were from very old games, and who made them, why, and how current events follow from them, and who is moving them. This is free will in terms of the human condition.
Whether anyone likes it or not, it’s open season.
respectfully,
Cody