Dave Lacey, please do the right thing.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Master Dave Lacey had made it very clear from the beginning that using the internet as a convenient avenue to publicly argue the history on CLF is a disgraceful way for settling a dispute as it will not only bring disgrace to the Choy Lay Fut name but also to Chinese Martial Arts. But what does he cares? He has berately used his internet’s kung fu website to vent his frustrations and bruised egos – all in the name of PRIDE & PREJUDICE and to draw public attention and support for his pathetic cause (to discredit the martial arts legacy of Chan Heung and his Hung Sing CLF branch)!

We all know who the chief instigator is in this internet family feud that started in August 2001 which incited others with the same mentality to hurl insults at other so called “CLF brothers”. It’s not surprising that “the General” gets his kicks from watching his favorite TV show – “The Jerry Springer Show” for he and his cronies have done a good job at replicating it on the Kung Fu Forum and his website!! For what started as an open debate on the history of CLF turned into a bitter conflict that has become a “Black Chapter” in not only the CLF martial arts but also Chinese Martial Arts in general.

This conflict between the CLF clans is a private and “internal” matter within the family and not something for shameless people to drag onto the internet’s kung fu online e-mail forum and their own webpages for the audience of the world to see. It was not till the beginning of 2002 that Joseph and others responded to the ongoing conflicts. However, the perspicacity from it was too much for these self-righteous individuals to comprehend or take as it had bruised their egotistic pride and self-conscious minds.
ARE YOU AFRAID TO “FACE” THE TRUTH?

There is much truth to the history of CLF to be revealed but because of the sensitivity of it, the Hung Sing and Buck Sing elders have been reluctant to reveal it as it would do no good to make it public as it would only further fragment the already fragile relationship between the CLF clans. For this reason, the Hung Sing and Buck Sing elders insists on resolving such “internal” conflicts by meeting face to face with the representatives of the Chan Clan in private as they do not wish to have the feud between them made a public spectacle. It was never Master Lacey’s intention to bring this conflict out in the open as he, like his sifu and elders, believe in defending their honor in person and not over the internet or through other forms of correspondence.

But you know what, Master Dave Lacey never did what he said he would do. He never contacted any one from the Chen Family privately or publicly. The Kong Hing incidence was another of his urban myth, they don’t know each other and they have never spoken to each other. Master Dave Lacey just kept on writing more pages of boring rubbish on his website attacking everyone who disagreed with him, so if Joseph really want to “seek the truth”, then being a “(5th generation) die hard Chan Clan elder” (so Dave says), he must be able to dispute the true historical facts behind CLF’s history with the Hung Sing and Buck Sing elders of the 5th generation by writing an open letter to Master Dave Lacey, who is suppose to be a representative of the Hung Sing and Buck and Hong Kong CLF Union, and expects an answer.

Joseph says he’s “not afraid of the truth” but it’s obvious Master Dave Lacey is, otherwise why wouldn’t he and his fellow clan elders jump at the chance to accept Joseph’s request to debate the issues with him openly to find out who has more credibility to their story and historical facts on the founding of Choy Lay Fut.

Some Chan Clan supporters have boldly bragged how they could make Master Dave Lacey look like an idiot (because he doesn’t buy their fabricated history on CLF) and they did! But Master Dave Lacey is afraid to face Joseph in writing for the fear of “losing face” despite all their talk of evidences, proofs and innuendo to prove that our CLF history is “distorted”! Is it because previous attempts have proved fruitless?!

Come on, Master Dave Lacey, have you rang or contacted Chan Wing-Fat, Wong Doc-Fai or Mak Hing-Fai yet? I am sure they are waiting for your explanations after you have insulted them so well on your website and elsewhere but refused to face your critics here. Even if you don’t want to reply to Joseph’s open letter, at least do the right thing and contact these people for a private discussion to resolve your differences. As you mentioned it over and over again, it is the only proper way to resolve the history of CLF contraversy. All of us are waiting and watching at how a respectful teacher like yourself would behave in this kind of situation.

Master Dave Lacey, please do the right thing and get this contraversy over and done with.

JosephX
(With apology for using your words in most of this long winded posting. :D)

2

Anybody can look back through the archives of posts and see that JoX was one of the main instigators in this whole mess and can see that he has gone on to display some sort of smear campaign against Dave Lacey. JoX your posturing and political intrigues are quite transparent in that you play the forum members as fools and think they can’t remember as far back as last year.

Your words are very hollow considering that you are one of the key instigators in this whole mess. How do you expect people to honestly take in what you say when you post up stupid poems to Bean Curd that are blatant jabs at instigation. Why dont you actually attack some of the issues at hand? Why can’t you actually address the historical issues that have been brought up (that you slyly avoided i might add) instead of attacking statements made towards the ability of a 90 yr old man (when actually the history goes further with the man reaching well into his hundreds if you buy the timeline). You didn’t even address that, you only want to present a picture that benefits your shallow reasoning so that you can appear as if you are deducing and using common sense info. You tried to do the same thing earlier with the history of the Sei Yup area and its overall wealth (or your position was their lack thereof), but once BC mentioned the contrary, you did a runner and went personal (which is clearly your MO). You bring up topics to sound knowledgeable because you think most of the members are ignorant to the history of where their arts originated. Do you not think people see this? Solidly refute the arguments instead of grasping at straws. You attack semantics instead of history. How is that going to prove your point? What are YOU trying to achieve with this whole mess?

In your latest post you try to make it seem like you have laid out all of the info on the table for everyone to see when you have done the exact opposite with your circular arguments and OBVIOUS backpedaling in avoiding key issues. Instead of attacking what a person says and the manner in which they say it, why dont you actually address the ISSUES. If we just attacked the manner in which people say things, everybody could have just as easily written off everything you have said because you present it like an immature (and catatonic) child. Of course people dont do that because they want to give you the benefit of the doubt. Which is more than you have given in any instance.

It is clear that you never intended to have anything resolved and just wanted to posture from the safety of your computer. Your drastic changes in tone (and now even referring to yourself in a different person) affect your credibility because you cannot pick a stance on the issues. First you wanna bash Dave Lacey then you switch to the elders, then go back to Dave, etc. You wonder why people think you are actually not one person? I think your posts clearly show that you are either more than one person or you are severly schizophrenic and need to get on some medication. Or you can just be starting sh!t and your words are meant to incite, but these are clearly actions taken by a 5th generation player/elder…
:rolleyes:

Quit posturing that you are trying to do this for the benefit of CLF because your actions on this board show otherwise. You make out that this whole controversy started with Dave, but it was actually YOU who started the whole thing with your supposed historical investigation into the background of the Green Grass monk. Anybody can go to Dave’s site and see that his very first response, back in May of this year, was actually responding to people that had contacted him about certain things. That was it. This whole situation would have been avoided had it not been for JoX posturing that he was an elder in CLF and making such bold claims. When you say things like that, people will judge you by the standard. With that in mind, it is clear that you DO NOT fit the standard in any sense. If you were a 5th generation player, you would have known what was going on since day one.

Bottom line…

PUT UP OR SHUT UP! Your posturing is getting old. I just hope the CLF community on this forum sees it. I think the aforementioned term “panocha” suits you just fine. Or you can prove me wrong, but i doubt that will happen.

3

Illusionfist,

leave it alone, why are you arguing with a troll. No real CLF elder will want the family laundry being aired out like this. Only a troll will takes pleasure in continuing this in the manner it is now.

DF

4

Hi Illusionfist,

DF is right, don’t feed me, otherwise you will be sorry.

However, if you think I am not a troll, then let us restart. Now, you want to talk about ISSUES. What do you think the key issues are and how do you think Dave Lacey has addressed them on his website? I must have missed his points of argument, please enlighten me. IOW, what do you want me to put up since I have no intention of shutting up? BTW, this is a plead-post to Dave Lacey and since I am sure he has no intetion of joining us, you and others may as well come and have some fun.

I can’t help but noticed you signed yourself off as Evil Hung Gar Gestapo, are you sure you know enough about CLF history and politics to be involved? Also, isn’t there enough contraversies in Hung Gar for you to police than to worry about another style?

I am sorry you didn’t appreciate my literary effect, it was just a fun thing to do at the time and nothing serious was intended.

Whether you want to continue talking to me or not is up to you. I hope you will.

Cheers,

JosephX

5

My knowledge of CLF and its history is irrelevant in this whole argument. The point being is that i’m outside of the CLF element and i can see through your veiled attempts at trying to deface Dave Lacey, Buk Sing, and the Hung Sing clans. You turn the discussion around on others so that you dont have to answer anything (which was also your tactic that was used in response to everything BC said). You make comments under the guise of jest just so you can bail out on the situation if it gets too hot and you get called on your BS, then you say, “it was just a fun thing to do at the time and nothing serious was intended.”

It is apparent you go back and research what Dave has said on his site, and yet you say you failed to see the points of argument? You nitpick at what he says yet you dont see the actual ITEMIZED list of questions Dave wrote on his site? Quit trying to turn the discussion around on other people so they can spell out everything. You know what was said, just answer it…

You like to be the bearer of bad news that will be detrimental to decades to come, but yet the news you bring is just something that is only bad in your own mind and self-serving to your own interests. CMA have gone through much worse and have endured, so what you try to claim as being detrimental to the family of CLF is hogwash.

If you know how detrimental this kind of discussion is and how it relates to Hung Kuen disputes in the past, why do you go on in the manner that you have? If you followed the previous disputes, then you also know how they were handled. They were handled in the exact same fashion Dave Lacey is proposing.

6

DF,

If you really want to see some dirty laundry you should look up Dave Lacey¡¦s website. How would you like it if someone attacked you and called you names then hide behind his computer so you have no way of answering back? I am not an elder and if I am one, I would have written to Kong Hing and give Dave Lacey an earful by now.

My gripe is with Dave Lacey and not with you or Illusionfist. I have no choice but to vent my feeling here, I am sure he reads every one of my words and he is going to write another chapter on his website soon to counter attack me from a safe distance.

Please don¡¦t call me a troll and insult me, just put me on your ¡§ignore¡¨ list if you don¡¦t like what I have to say.

Yours always,

Jo Seph

7

Illusionfist,

Instead of trying to talk about the issues as requested by yourself in the first place, you are now attacking me in person instead, the same way Dave Lacey handled the whole history controversy.

He proposed to have the matter dealt with by the elders in private, then immediately went on the offensive and attacked anyone who doesn¡¦t agree with him in the public domain. Is this the way they do things in a Mu Duk way?

Let us get back on track and take one issue at a time and look at it in detail. You can repeat Dave Lacey¡¦s questions if you like.

On the other hands, if you think it is detrimental to CLF, then you can stop replying to this post and it will stop by itself as well.

It is over to you.

Yours always,

Jo Seph

8

Illusionfist-

Is there any chance that you are a personal aquaintance of Dave Lacey’s? Don’t let your personal knowledge cloud your judgement. The true instigators in this have been from the beginning Frank McCarthy and Dave Lacey.

Anything thing else was simply a discussion between friends on an internet discussion board.

As to Dave Lacey’s “points” that he makes on his board. Most of them are completely ludicrous and poorly argued. He makes logical fallacies all over the place and confuses personal opinion with fact. His “questions” are loaded and sarcastic.

BTW, who decides that Dave Lacey gets to ask the questions that are to be answered? The most fruitful discussion thus far have been inquiries into the politics of the CLF Union in Hong Kong which Dave Lacey so adamantly avoids answering.

As far as the “true” history, there is a rule in science and I think it should apply here. It is called Occam’s Razor (you can look up the principle if you like.) Simply stated it says that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

As Doc Fai-Wong pointed out in his book the Hung Sing/Bak Sing history asks us to believe events happened that run contradictory to what we know about Chinese culture at the time.

It also incorrectly attributes the formation of Choy Lay Fut as the combination of Choy Ga, Lay Ga and Fut Ga into one style. Incorrect because none of these styles resemble Choy Lay Fut.

There are huge inconsistencies in the Hung Sing version of the history that need to be resolved.

To draw attention away from these inconsistencies Dave Lacey brings up Chan Family inconsistencies that are actually miniscule and irrelevant to the underlying issues. For example, the faked picture of Chan Heung. Even if this picture is a fake it brings us no closer to the true history because it would have been faked rather recently. Or the Tiger Skin story, obviously an embellishment or fabrication, but criticizing it still does nothing to bring us closer to the origin of the art.

What we need to address (which no one wants to) are the cold hard facts, like dates, locations, birth and death records, primary source materials, sociological information about China at that time, a correct and thoroughly researched lineage, comparison of forms/techniques/training methods amongst lineages, etc, etc, etc,.

This kind of research is not fun or easy. And some people’s egos might become bruised as the “truth” is revealed.

So instead of undertaking this we pleasantly live in a fantasy world where “Sifu knows best” and we shuffle about for position and argue about nothing.

And now that I read the words that I wrote I realize that this forum is really a big waste of my time.

There is an expression “zither,chess, painting, book and sword.” These were the 5 excellences that a Scholar-Warrior was supposed to master: music, strategy, visual arts, book learning and military arts.

Playing here reminds me of playing chess. We all jockey for position, but I guess in the end this game of chess is simply a virtual waste of time and the real game is out in the real world.

See you at some tournaments soon Dave Lacey and students.

Bye for now.

9

Fu-Pow,

Once more you have expressed things in a way much better than I can.

Once more you have inspired me to hold my tongue.

My fullest admiration and best wishes,

JosephX

10

Well said, Fu-Pow.

11

extrajoseph,

I have no gripe with you either, for I don’t even know you. As I said earlier, I have friends from all three lines of CLF. It is like watching your friends going thru a bad break up and it is getting uglier by the day. It is true that there always be politics and disagreement among families but still it is hard for a concern outsider to watch. It is your family and as a Hung Ga player, it is not my place to tell you guys what to do and how to do it or even to say who is right or wrong. I just want to voice my concern since I have friends that are CLF players. Hung Ga family went thru similar things last year as many are aware of. We collectively had decided to come to a resolution behind close door and stay as “one family”. Yes there are issues that still unresolve, but we will deal with them privately thru designated rep from each of our respective lineages in private. The goal is the fighting and arguing has to stop with my generation so the latter generation will spend their energy in better the family rather then fighting. I apologize again if I intrude into matters that is not concern of mine. Sometimes I take the word" mo lum yat gar" too seriously.

peace

DF

12

Fu Pow- I totally understand what you are saying and if you can honestly come from that perspective (a more scientific one), you should also see that what was proposed in the beginning isn’t something that is far fetched or even detrimental to family issues within CLF.

You say the points Dave Lacey made are “completely ludicrous and poorly argued.” I have not seen anything that has been posted on these boards that have been any better since this whole argument began. If the statements were totally ludicrous, then it should be easy to disprove the statements with solid evidence.

Using the razor as a point of argument in this is not valid dude. You know that CMA is rife with all sorts of things that would make the simplest answer too short sided.

“BTW, who decides that Dave Lacey gets to ask the questions that are to be answered?” Given that JoX said he had the proof to make Dave Lacey look like an idiot, i would say that the preponderence of the evidence lies on JoX’s irrefutable proof. This is why i would say Dave asks those questions since JoX has the “proof” supposedly. I’m sure if there was a concise answer given, Dave would be more than happy to address the issues regarding the CLF union (which he already addressed in his previous posts on his site, but i guess you guys aren’t satisfied with it).

JoX- I have not even remotely gone personal with you because i have nothing to gain from that. What i have spoken about before is based clearly from your actions on these boards. If you take it as personal jabs, then so be it. I think its evident that you are just arguing to argue. You have once again avoided the situation by passing the buck on to me and trying to make me seem like I should illustrate the points that have been made. You know exactly what BC asked and you have yet to answer it. You know what was asked on Dave’s site and you have yet to address the actual questions. Instead you just attacked semantics and are trying to cast dispersions on Dave Lacey’s mo duk now (like you are the epitome of Mo Duk :rolleyes: )

You say that you being mentioned in his posts is airing out the dirty laundry, but i think its just him making a character observation and calling a spade a spade. You can’t sit here and try to say that you have not deserved the flack you have gotten. Just look at how you act on the boards? You honestly want people to treat you in a respectable manner when you have not been respectful throughout the entire process. You openly defied the elders and their involvement in this process since the very beginning. You have made slanderous statements, twisted arguments around, and have avoided any attempts at civil debate, and now you are crying that YOU are the victim? Give me a break man. Dont be a “panocha” and just stand up for what you said and deal with it.

So how bout you just get down to it eh? As BC once told you, just answer what was asked of you and anything else shows your true character and intention. Surprise us for once and actually contribute (constructively).

With that, i bid you adieu and have officially signed off from this business. We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

Kiu Saus and Kisses,
IF

13

Illusionfist, You obviously have a tendency to defend Dave Lacey. For whatever reason it seems that you have considerable sympathies with him. Surely you can’t consider his extensive pages and pages of barely coherent ramblings and personal attacks (not to mention complete misinformation, not least in his assumptions about the people on this board) as even vaguely constructive to the discussion. Sure, JoX can be circular in his arguments and not too constructive, but you talk as if Lacey is being concise and forthright! Personally, I find it a lot easier to understand JoX and Fu-Pow than I do Dave Lacey (or bean curd, k-no or Frank McCarthy for that matter), and they both seem to be far more interested in facts and open debate. Lacey just casts venomous barbs from his ivory tower.

Don’t forget that all this started with Frank McCarthy telling everyone to watch out as he was going to shake their world. Pretty antagonistic and arrogant to say the least. Lacey has jumped on board with his own special brand of lunacy and is making no more sense than McCarthy.

It really would behoove Lacey to get his own family in line before demanding and insulting faceless nobodies on the internet.

14

Joseph and others…

i’ve been following this latest addition to your shameful conduct for a while, and the whole time i was wondering “when will Joseph actually answer the points that Master Dave Lacey presents?”
well, ladies and gents, i think we all know the answer to that. he won’t, because he either cannot, or does not care to. Joseph, you keep mentioning “discrepancies” yet you refuse to point them out and logically refute them! It has even gotten to the point where Illusionfist, who freely admits he is “outside the CLF element”, points out your folly and yet you STILL continue under the pretense of “finding the truth” and doing what you are doing for the benefit of people. You aren’t fooling anyone.
You don’t even post with the same intent in several different posts. I don’t believe you’re one person. In fact, there are those who believe you are specifically here just to “stir up the sh!t” and watch the sparks fly. Master Lacey has invited you to settle this face to face, yet you turn everything around and point the finger back like a spoiled little child trying to escape the blame. Master Lacey makes some good points, and you have yet to refute them! The way you post is clearly the work of more than one person. Some of your posts appear to be, for lack of a better word, passive… while others are clearly inflammatory. I think you just like making waves, myself. Bean Curd said it best when he said “you are a paper tiger”.
As Illusionfist said, don’t play the hapless victim here. You’ve all gone to Master Lacey’s website, there is a contact telephone number there PLAIN AS DAY for all to see! Yet you maintain that you have no way to contact him?!?!? He has personally and directly invited ALL of you detractors to meet with him and other elders to discuss (yes, discuss!) this matter face to face! Who are the real ones hiding behind their monitors? If I have a problem with an elder or one of a more prominent generation than me, shall I expect him to come to me? HELL NO! I must go to them! That’s the way it’s been for many moons, and it will continue to be that way, because although he takes the time to write you occasionally, i’m quite sure that Master Lacey has more important things to do than hunt you weasels down! There is no question that he has contributed a legacy to CLF, and helped perpetuate it’s spread… what have you done Joseph? FuPow? Besides puff your chests up on Kung Fu Magazine forums? I mean really… it’s a wonder anyone takes you kids seriously anymore! Again, I draw on Illusionfist’s previous posts… if you were anything close to the students of history that you claim to be, you’d realize with the greatest of ease that these disputes have been handled effectively in the past, by tried-and-true methods, and Master Lacey is employing those methods. These methods separate the men from the boys, so to speak, and those who have material of real value can present it to those who are in the position to do something with it (the elders)! You act as if David Lacey is trying to lure you into some sort of trap… what, with the press and neutral parties there as witnesses? Where exactly would that get him? Stop stalling for time and taunting Master Lacey… it is YOU who must “do the right thing” and stand up for your so-called “beliefs”. In person. Have you the guts? Probably not. My guess is, you’ll try to turn this around and attack myself, Master Lacey, perhaps Illusionfist and Bean Curd as well, as has been your pattern, to attemp to distract everyone from the fact that you CLEARLY don’t have the “cajones” to go to Master Lacey with your so-called evidence and “discrepancies” and take this to the next level!
no, no… you kids are content to keep it here, where you can hide behind your screens, post all you want without thinking things through, all the while switching who posts in some pre-pubescent teenage game of “my turn, my turn!”.
You’ve been called out on numerous occasions. You dont’ respond with anything worthwhile. You stall for more and more time, giving less and less valuable reasons for doing so, and losing what chances you have at being taken seriously. so , you are correct in saying … “Do the right thing” is the theme here… but it’s on you to do it!

p.s. due to my non-spanish speaking ignorance, Jaza has pointed out to me a supremely grave error of truly colossal propotions. my sincerest apologies to any offended readers! i shall endeavor to vastly improve my comprehension and mastery of espanol in the days to come… because I have the cOjones :smiley:

15

If they don’t have the “cajones” means that they don’t have boxes.
Two much mexican films dude, is “cojones”.

16

Extrajoseph stop pushing the boundaries with Master Lacey as your identity will soon be revealed and consequences will follow.

Master Lacey is famous within the CLF family and has always upheld the good name and honour of his school and of CLF.

Master Lacey does not hide his identity as you do and does not hide behind a fictitious alias. If you want to speak like that about him then be a man and reveal yourself.

17

ExtraJo:
You say that you have no other way to contact Sifu Lacey and so you post garbage supposedly addressed to him on these forums. ANyone with an ounce of intelligence can see that these posts are intended to publicly defame Sifu Lacey and are not addresed to him at all. You say there is no way to contact him, yet his number is on his website and he has personally invited you to meet with him. You have not declined the invitation, giving a reason. You have not offered an alternative invitation or described conditions under which you would be prepared to meet him. You have simply ignored the offer, hoping others would not notice your cowardice and would continue to be lead by your irrelevant posts.

As you have almost completely ignored the invitation by Sifu Lacey to discuss this in person, and prefer to continue this dispute over the net it can only be inferred that your true purpose here is to stir up sh[SIZE=2]i[/SIZE]t and defame Sifu Lacey. If you were interested in constructive conversation with SIfu Lacey, you would have accepted his offer.

Why are you scared to met him?
He does not want your personal contact details. He is prepared to meet you with members of the publice present. If you had a particular place or people you would like to be present in mind, I’m sure Sifu Lacey would happily agree. Don’t reject the prospect of a personal meeting altogether, like a coward. At least tell us this: Under what circumstances would you be prepared to meet with Sifu Lacey to hold a productive discussion regarding these issues? If these are reasonable Sifu Lacey will agree… what’s the problem? Why are you so scared to meet with him?

18

Mantra for the day:

HOLD MY TONGUE…
HOLD MY TONGUE…
HOLD MY TONGUE…
HOLD MY TONGUE…
HOLD MY TONGUE…
HOLD MY TONGUE…
HOLD MY TONGUE…
HOLD MY TONGUE…
HOLD MY TONGUE…

Hi guys,

I am trying my best, give the man a fair go…

Peace,

JosephX :slight_smile:

19

well guys

I’ve asked k-no to pass on my questions to Lacey, so we could wait and see what he has to say.

unfortunately he always seem to be on a trip.

But I’m sure k-no will let us know or me know when they are answered.

20

Master Doc Fai Wong also have his address, phone and mail on his website, and Master David Lacey put some comments about him in his article.
Why he didn’t contact him to discuss his versions, and use his website to do it publicly?

I’m not related with master DFW, just showing a fault of consequence.