My One and Only Problem With BJJ

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Hey, all…

This is probably going to come across as deliberately provocative, and I promise I don’t mean it that way.

That said, I have to thank a lot of the MMA and BJJ practioners and posters here and on other forums for making me take a long hard look at my training. Like I’ve said before, I found some areas where it was wanting, and I’ve moved to address them. Groundfighting was one of those areas, and though I found a judo club to learn newaza at, I really am most impressed with what I’ve seen BJJ players pull off at various tournaments and in the UFC and whatnot. It really does seem like a great art.

However, despite the fact that there’s a BJJ school not five minutes from my house, I can’t bring myself to consider going there, and here’s why: the teeming throngs of chest-thumping “BJJ is the only true way” guys I see on the net. I know that not all BJJ players are like this, and probably not even very many of them, but I also can’t help but think that this attitude comes from somewhere within BJJ itself. Because there are so many people doing it makes me think that there’s some sort of institutionalized machismo to it…I have images of a Cobra Kai-like sensei screaming at his students that this is the only way of the warrior and that all other arts are worthless.

I mean, I think it’s great if people have discovered something that they feel is superior to what they’ve done before, and I can certainly understand wanting to share that kind of revelation, but the subtext isn’t usually, “Wow, I found something great I want to share with you.” More often than not, it’s “You suck and my way (the way of the Brazilian superman) rules!”

Is my perception wicked skewed? Is there built-in machismo? Or is this the same kind of tunnel-visioned enthusiasm that insecure newbies of any art inevitably come away with?

I do want to say that there are quite a few exceptions to the glaring stereotype I just described on this forum, Merryprankster most notably. MP, I get the impression that any BJJ evangelizing you do falls quite squarely in the “whoa, let me show you something great” area.

I guess basically, I notice a trend, and I wonder where it comes from and why.

–
Rev. Tim

P.S. I’m really not trying to pick a fight. I’m honestly curious, and me and my screenplay have come up against horrible writers’ block, so I had to write SOMETHING just to get juices flowing.

2

Here’s an idea. Why not go to that school and take a class? Then decide if you still feel the same way.

I’d certainly like to hear your report!

(And no, I don’t study BJJ).

3

Re: My One and Only Problem With BJJ

Originally posted by ReverendTim
[B]Hey, all…

However, despite the fact that there’s a BJJ school not five minutes from my house, I can’t bring myself to consider going there, and here’s why: the teeming throngs of chest-thumping “BJJ is the only true way” guys I see on the net. I know that not all BJJ players are like this, and probably not even very many of them, but I also can’t help but think that this attitude comes from somewhere within BJJ itself. Because there are so many people doing it makes me think that there’s some sort of institutionalized machismo to it…I
. [/B]

Hajlilujah! Halilujah! Amen! Amen my brother!

Why study an art that is bound to lower you’re IQ?

4

yeah, I think that’s mad skewed. However, I do believe that the inception of NHB fights had a lot to do with it. Back when MMA began, the most frequent winners were grapplers. that combined with the gracie’s “80% of all fights go to the ground” catch phrase led many people to believe that grappling is the be all end all. Nowadays, we know that this is not true and that you also need to have well developed striking techniques. Also, look at the nature of the game. You have to get psyched. you have to get hype. ever play football in school? you didn’t go to the field thinking “okay, we may lose” you went to the field thinking that you could take on the world.

5

Nope…

I was never that way. I know I can win. I know I can loose. So I take it as it comes, there is no need to anticipate.

When I spar, I don’t think those things , I just do.

I know this sounds very Daoist, but it’s the way I’ve always thought :slight_smile:

6

sure, for you. I’m the same way almost…I just don’t care. I fight for the fight and nothing more. winning or losing doesn’t matter. I almost had to forfeit a fight once because I was so calm that the paramedic said my blood pressure was so low that I should be dead. he had to take my blood pressure like 3 times.

I think I am right for the majority though - at least among those that seriously compete. that attitude while getting you psyched may eventually intimidate your opponent. Look at vanderlei. How many people really WANT to fight him? and he has said that to get psyched up he pretends that his opponent just ate his children. In other words, he goes in to kill, and does a good job of it. I don’t really see a problem with all the machisimo though, as long as ig doesn’t get out of hand. a little friendly competition is good, and all of the machisimo adds to that.

7

Just look at it this way, Brazil has a very mannly culture. They have been doing Vale Tudo there for many years. Any martial art coming from Brazil is going to have a certain higher level of machismo. That being said, I also want to point out it really depends on the instructor and school as to what attitude you will encounter. Every school I’ve gone to, egos were never a problem.-ED

8

I know many of you may think that because of my Style Vs Style post earlier I may be one of the arrogant BJJ guys.

If you came to my school though I promise you will find it to be totally different,many of my students have come up to me and said they checked out a few schools and they like mine not only for the style and techniques but also for the friendly and good natured atmosphere.
I’m actually quite the happy go lucky guy.

I think alot of BJJ schools will suprise you that way.

9

The bjj school I go to is not like this at all. The people there are all great and only interested in one thing, helping you progress in bjj and become a better grappler. It also helps that the school is also skewed towards mma so they keep an open mind as to other martial arts. But I think a lot of bjj schools are like that, although there are sure to be bad ones out there as with any art.
And there certainly isn’t a sensei screaming at the students. In fact, I think you will find bjj is a much more relaxed atmosphere than almost any traditional school. From what I’ve read, in a lot of bjj schools in Brazil, the class times aren’t even set in stone. People show up when they want and stay as long as they want, not even a formal beginning or ending, just training.

10

Rev,
That’s like saying Gong Fu guys are a bunch of herd following lemmings with no perception of reality because of some discussion board participants.

11

Some truth here

Definitely some truth to this. But it’s not universal so check out the individual school. Some of the guys I work with are very much this way some are not. I just take all comments with a grain of salt. I work my standup game and escapes mostly(Plus track jitsu) and let them say what they want. I do it because I feel it’s necessary and it’s **** fun too. Just ignore the trash talking. Besides most of the guys I know appreciate a good technique regardless of source. I use wrist and elbow locks from karate all the time. Plus stancework is good for defending the initial takedown. Everyone in class sees that. (The bizarre thing is many of them still say karate sucks. “Good move, dude. What exactly did you do? No, don’t tell me about the stances; that stuff is a waste of time. Just tell me how you got to that sprawl.” Whatever.)

Mostly I think it’s the trendy thing. As each art has made it’s way to the top of the hill of public opinion it has brought with it this kind of crap. Read karate texts from the late 60s/early 70s or Taijitsu articles from the 80s or…you get the point.

Plus I think the style superiority thing is inherent in MA. Kind of like religion. If you believe that christianity is the bast path to enlightenment and eternal life, would you practice shinto? Unlikely. My experience is that most styles have this sort of thing in them to a certain degree.

On a more specific note, do you know the lineage of the nearby school? I have found that the Machado schools are much more respectful of other styles than the Gracie schools. Not trying to stir anything else up with that comment, just a personal observation. And yes, it’s just my anecdotal experience. Not a universal truth.

Lastly, my opinion on the style v. style debate: It seems that the best style is the one that you enjoy enough to train hard and stick with because that’s how one becomes a badass. My karate instructor can hold his own with almost anyone despite advancing years because he found something he enjoyed doing and has trained continuously(not always hardcore but always something) for 35+ years. His fellow master in our style who continues to practice but has devoted most of his time to kendo including wakizashe work is frightening with any kind of straight weapon. My dad wrestled and competed on state level but quit at 18. Needless to say he’s not exactly a badass now. We have students walk into the BJJ class all the time. If the ones who came in just the last year had stuck around, we’d have over 100 students. On any given night there are 4-10. IS BJJ the most effective art? Maybe for that core group. The rest will only get themselves hurt.

12

Reverend,

There’s a lot of testosterone at tournaments. I don’t know why. There’s also a lot of “my style is the best,” everywhere you go. I know lots of people who think they can’t be taken down or the infamous “that won’t work on me…”

Boooool-sheet as Wallid Ismail would say…

Here is the atmosphere of most schools:

  1. They believe in hard sparring under a specific set of guidelines designed to reduce injury. You typically spar after almost every class.

  2. Most schools are on a first name basis with senior students and instructors. Titles are rarely every used. I call Lloyd Lloyd or sometimes Master Lloyd, but I picked that up from the kids–besides, I try to make sure that I use Master Lloyd in front of the kids anyway, same with some of my training partners–I call them Master sometimes, especially in front of the kids.

  3. Relaxed and laid back. No yes sensei no sensei stuff… no hyper aggression. Most schools teach that relaxation and flow are the keys to good BJJ. Redirection of force and unexpected forces are paramount.

  4. Most schools do not encourage a “tough guy,” mentality–at least, not those that do a lot of winning. You lay it all on the line on the mat. There is a lot of celebration of victory, but almost never any rubbing in the loss. The “tough guys,” are usually Joe White Belts with six zillion gi patches, a fight tattoo, a goatee and a shaved head, with a license plate border that says "I’d rather be tapping you out or “zhiu-zhitsu.” Most of them never make it past blue because they find out it takes too much work and time. Michael Jen, a well respected instructor on the West Coast, estimates that fewer than 1% of the people who start BJJ make it to Purple. If you aren’t willing to leave your ego at the door, you’ll never make it in this game, because you WILL lose, and sometimes BADLY.

Anyway, not that it’s important, but cheers :slight_smile:

13

Timmy, Timmy, Timmy

When did you start posting here again? I pretty much a lurker now because this place cracks me up more than anything else.

Anyhoo, as a former student of the bjj school “not five minutes” from your place, I can assure you that there is not much chest thumping at all. As a matter of fact, I’ve also trained at the Judo club that you mention and there was a lot more chest thumping there. So much so that I left never to return.

Knowing that I was coming from a BJJ background, I was only allowed to use chokes since they didn’t know if I could “apply submissions with control”. Then, while grappling that big burly black belt there (the one the went into the service) while I was only 145 lbs, I was handling his offense rather well from my guard just trying to get a feel for his balance and tendencies. After getting his back and having him turtle, we stopped because “he could break me in half” if he wanted to.

I’m quite sure he and a lot of other guys at the club could school me standing up. Heck, that’s why I joined that club to begin with; to work on my throws. When it came to ground work, they were quick to mention Judo’s superiority blah blah blah. “We will not grapple you full speed on the ground because we will hurt you” “You should tap when you’re in that position because he will hurt you” No thanks.

BTW, you still doing shows at the Hong Kong?

14

Ford, MP, et al…

So since every one who’s posted describes a laid-back, informal, results-oriented place, then I guess I’ll just chalk the lip-flapping up to the “Joe White Belts” and internet bada$$es.

Ford, I am still at the Hong Kong…you should come by. The shows have gotten even more fun. Are you talking about the BJJ club on Mystic Ave.? Or further down on Broadway? And as to the judo club you mention, I do agree. That’s why I ended up in Somerville until my li’l fella got born.

In the interests of full disclosure, I should confess that as soon as I get the green light to train again, I’m looking quite seriously at a place that teaches boxing, muay thai, and BJJ/Catch submission grappling (the aforementioned place on Broadway). But I just don’t feel like paying my money to hang out with a bunch of Raleks, you know?

–
T.

15

The wise may learn everything from the fool, but the fool learns nothing from the wise.

Simply, be open to learning, correction, and criticism. Regardless of their attitude toward you or others, you can glean knowledge and skills practicing with ‘chest thumper.’ Losing is their shame, not ours.

One of the most important skills you may acquire among them is patience, patience, and more patience.

Mantis9:D

16

Hey Ford,
What’s up? Where are you training now? I pictured you doing NHB by now.-Ed

17

Rev,

I was talking about Boston BJJ in Watertown. It’s close to Soldier’s Field Road, Rt 16/20, and the Pike. I’ve trained at the place on Broadway though, and they are a great bunch of guys too. I always had a good time and a good workout whenever I went there. (it’s **** cheap too!)

That’s cool that you went to Somerville. A few guys I trained BJJ with train there as well and have nothing but good things to say about it. They say the stand-up is very competitive. Also, I’d say it’s safe to assume that anywhere you train BJJ/MMA, you won’t find a bunch of Ralek’s. Most of the guys that train have come from some sort of traditional arts background and are just learning BJJ to fill in the gaps. The chest beaters are a very small minority and are usually not even good at BJJ. The overwhelming majority of the guys are open minded and train because they love it. Not because they think they are bad-arse.

I’ll definately be stopping by the Hong Kong now that the weather is warm enough to venture out to the likes of Cambridge. :wink: There better still be scorpion bowls there!

18

Hey Ed,

I wish! I kept re-injuring my knee, so I’m giving up the arts for a bit. I’m avoiding surgery like the plague. :slight_smile: I’m just getting back into basketball, mountain biking, skydiving, and snow boarding to pass the time. I still train with friends, but nothing near as intensely as I used to. It’s weird. I can do anything with my knee, but the second I start playing the guard, I’m limping for a week.

I took my trip out to Huntington Beach, and I fell in love with Cali. The woman finally agreed to move there in a couple years. I couldn’t get enough of surfing. I hit up the HB pier, Newport pier, and San Ofre beach in San Clemente. Too much fun! Too bad the East Coast doesn’t believe in waves. :frowning:

How’s training going for you?

19

???

“Brazil has a very mannly culture. They have been doing Vale Tudo there for many years. Any martial art coming from Brazil is going to have a certain higher level of machismo”

Have you ever been there? It’s not very macho at all, as a matter of fact there are allot of “alternative” life style followers, if you catch my drift.

In Brazil they don’t even call it “brazillian jujitsu” It’s just JJ. The whole BBJ thing you guys see here is more of an ingenuis marketing strategy employed by the gracies. Also talking with most Brazillians they really only consider capoeria as a brazil born martial art. At least that’s what I found travelling around during my 2 week stay there.

20

Hey Ford,
I took a break for a little bit, I busted my knee from a heel hook a few months back. My knee felt fine until I went to close guard and then I’d get a sharp pain. I just started training again two weeks ago and so far so good. Hopefully I’ll get a chance to roll with you the next time your here. Good luck with your knee, it took me almost three months to heal.-ED