My Canadian Loony's Worth...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Wow.

I’ve been pretty much silent on this whole topic. I really haven’t read the whole thread(s) involved either.

But I will address Frank’s recent comments…I realise Frank you have no respect for me from some previous comments you’ve made in this regard, but Man…you need to chill.

Fists and threats and name calling (either side of the coin) will not progress the subject or statement that Jeong Yim is or is not considered the Founder of CLF.

And as far as I’m concerned, Frank isn’t the only offender. It takes more than one to tango. Heck, my lineage has it’s own ideas on CLF and Bak Hsing, but we don’t cram it down people’s throats. It is our belief. If it isn’t yours, we won’t call you out on it.

I realise we are human and are thus prone to burts of uncontrolled emotion. But at some point, it becomes lunatic rantings. This is when pride of your lineage, respect of your Teacher and hopefully self control from those with the title ‘sifu’ come into play.

As I see it, for those who are so passionate about this subject they are lashing out verbally and trading insults, there is a strong likelihood of traditional beliefs and ways. And if this is the case, then I strongly suggest these folks step away from the subject at hand and assess their own actions and from hence the need to exchange bitter insults and personal (albeit vague) threats come from? If you are a teacher, what is it your students will learn from your actions on this forum?

If you are not a teacher and have little vested interest, then I’d say your trolling has gone well to date.

Some times silence is the best course when we know words are empty or will fall on deaf ears. Let’s face it, at the end of the day does it really affect how we’ll live our lives by what 1 to 5 people on this forum might say?!? Exactly. Call me an goof or a paperdragon. Whatever. But this posturing has become asinine. And yet it goes on-and-on-and-on.

For those who are teachers…accept the challenge of civility. For those who are not teachers…continue to have your fun because it is working wonderfully.

nospam.
:cool:

2

Not just monks & hermits BP many people live this way & you do not know them because of how they live their life quietly & with simple dignity. Some of the greatest people I’ve met walk the streets of their own block & people who live there don’t know how great they are. No flag waving & no wide recognition & best known by their own heart.

3

Fu-Pow

Even in disagreement, there is sharing. common ground. That is honoring Kung Fu, and honoring each other (regardless of station, imo). Good fellowship over a pot of tea. Sometimes that is the best that can be accomplished, and it can be enough. Agreement is not a condition. Thus, one is not alone.
Isolation can have many causes, and might be forced by circumstances. It can become a jail of sorts, and the key can get lost or stolen. Better to share a pot of tea, or sit in a circle as the American Indians do, and beat a drum into the night while ravens and wolves and eagles and bears dance and dance.

Cody

4

If you live in the mountains you will eat birds

American Indians have a great community, sense of nature and sense of politics. They have a chief, they have elders, they have rules and they discuss issues in an organized and civilized manner. Such a wonderfull civilization.

In the politics of Kung Fu there are many Chiefs and fewer Indians. So with so many people who wish to be in the forefront, then there is competition, rivalry and animosity. This is the law of the jungle, the law of man and beast.

Perhaps the hermit see’s this and keeps his distance. He sits, as you say, sipping tea with other like minded visiting hermits. Perhaps the hermit knows that each man has his own view, and to each their own. Why change another man’s truth when all truths are versions of universal truth. My right is your left, your right is my wrong.

“If you live in the mountains you will eat birds,
If you live near the ocean you will eat fish.”

Cheers my friends

Buddhapalm

5

My view is different from yours, and yet, there is a meeting of the minds. haha (a deep peaceful laugh that I share for that reason)
The relative wisdom of select individuals can ease the beast, so to speak. But a particular societal structure is something I must experience for myself, or observe to my satisfaction, in order to evaluate how I feel about it. I mistrust any banner of authority, with good reason. In one season, there might be an approximation of justice that is exemplary; in another, there is little or none. The tribe, the clan, the Kung Fu family. similarities and differences, broad and specific to situations and times.
I will admit that my mention of sitting around the drum was based solely on attending an Indian Pow Wow. It was night. There was dancing. And, round the drum, there was harmony. That is all.

I tend not to hold to notions of universal truth or absolutes, because that is beyond my comprehension or vision, two different things. I prefer to avoid this kind of structuring in my thinking. The written contributions of a Buddhist monk changed my life in the martial arts, but I am not a Buddhist, while I appreciate different ways of thinking and feeling.

Spiritually, in a practical sense, I am like a bird in the mountains and a fish in the ocean. Wherever I fly or swim, I am devoured and left for dead. And I am naive enough to hope that people who are Not very like-minded can share that pot of tea or make music at one with the drum and feathers and bells and dancing feet that have turned to claws and paws in the night. That is my dream.

I see a man’s truth as an interaction between his essence (which I leave undefined) and the programming of mind and emotion which is molded as ego development is completed in childhood. There is also the pull between challenge (to be all you can be) and the comfort zone. Hence, it had become one of my quests to change the way people think, especially people I care about individually, or as part of groups which mean something to me. One method I have used was to have them listen to their own contradictions. These contradictions can point to inner conflict. The totality of a human being which has an impact on divisions of mind and heart, on how affiliations affect us, etc. is too complex, and doesn’t respond well to disclosure. I’m not even so sure about seeking balance as a goal. So, I say less and listen more.

Yes, each man has his own view. His view, the views imposed on him which he takes in as his own, and so on. Know what? The worst thing you can do is to show people this. They sometimes already know on some level. Part of the difficulty is that my approach might involve additional painful introspection and life adjustments of an uncertain quantity. So, I have stepped back, not because of a “way” such as you express, but because I haven’t learned how to act as I would wish to affect changes that would make things better.
In some ways, I am the hermit. In others not. But, I do see complete withdrawal as an alternative, though not what I would have wanted.

Cody

6

Cody I sought a personal truth in this thing & lived in mountain caves with American natives for one year & it took time before they would let me inside their sacred places so I lived in a cave the whole time. Walked away thinking the orange peel theory is right perhaps with much similar things between Han & Indians. Just me & external setting doesn’t matter for things that are inside of me even when I move inside things to the outside.

7

Diamond Talons,

It is difficult to find entrance to a cultural space, and I think it is a rare thing to be able to experience it as one born into that venu. There might be too much a tendency to glorify or find fault with. Within each place, there are problems. The balance of which problems predominate and how they are solved or efficiently disposed of might differ, or just appear so. But, all are expressions of the human condition and are to be valued as such. I admire your attempt. I have been on a journey. I am realizing more similarities than differences in what I examined, as they are all from human stock and mind.

You sense an inner constancy. I do too. Yet, I would caution that if the outer experience finds something within to bind or hang onto, you could “change” according to that which was you all along. It can happen very fast or over a period of time, for better or for worse. The exchange matters very much for the self which is not fully actualized. I can’t speak for beyond that point.

Your reference to Orange Peel Theory kind of left me in the dust. I found two simple explanations of the plate tectonics. One was aimed towards children. A peel is removed from an orange in as few pieces as possible. Place pieces on table and see how they look (some pieces don’t look as round as they did on the orange.). Replace peel on orange, using toothpicks to hold it on. This is the earth’s crust, with cracks and plates. It looks round again. I’m not really clear on the comparison you had in mind except that things do not appear as they are when the orange peel is on the table.

In my orange quest on the Web, I found an interesting page. It is geared towards teachers, but I don’t think that suggesting it as reading should rub anyone the wrong way. Adult conflict or child confllict. It amounts to the same thing. I think this has relevance. I wouldn’t have found it without the orange peel reference. I’m delighted!
Out on a Limb. A Guide to Getting Along. Conflict Resolution Theory.
http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/conflict/guide/intro_theory.html

Cody

in the post, something happened with the link. Maybe I can pick up the pieces here so the entirety will make sense.
“…edu/conflict/guide/intro_theory…”

8

who’s write is right

To me, universal truth is simply truth… universaly seen. Nothing fancy or religious. Fancy religions or cults are repeated by fancy tongues. Simple truth is simply seen.

On one side the earth is dark, on the other it is bright, but universaly speaking, it is both. People on one side say its night, on the other side, day. People see what they can see from their angle. They have little choice. It would be insane for peoples of both hemispheres to battle due to their perspective beliefs of day or night.

Views on martial arts are the same. One side see’s this, one side see’s that, but from outside people see a different view.

To see your truth YOU have to SEE it.
To hear your truth YOU have to HEAR it.

If I did not physically see Boddhidarma, Hung Hay Gwon, Chan Heung or other founders, then I cannot say anything with certainty about their skills or arts. I can only believe what I want to believe.

But why fight over beliefs, we all have our own beliefs inspired by our passions and dreams and hopes. We see what we want to see, we hear what we want to hear. Why argue in vain trying to push our ideas upon others. The weak will conform, the strong will confront, and those who have better things to do will move on.

Why care about what OTHERS believe,
Why believe about what OTHERS care,
I live for me not OTHERS,
otherwise I would be born anOTHER.

My meaning of:
“If you live in the mountains you will eat birds,
If you live near the ocean you will eat fish.”

…is that you are influenced by your surroundings, and to each his own.

I can sit in a circle with 11 others who yell and disagree, but my tea will not taste very good. So instead I drink Turkish Coffee and write foolish poetry.

Enough from me.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

9

again,

for those who did read my post before this one, please check out the Link at its end, regarding Conflict Resolution. It’s short. The examples are applicable to all ages in some way, as indicated in the text. Please don’t be put off by the initial context. For anyone who is involved in conflict, I think it is worth reading. It’s a beginning. hm?

buddahpalm,
I tripped over symantics. They are not the words I would have chosen, or the perspective. Yet, you have explained it well. The insanity you speak of, I believe is alive and kicking in this world. Sometimes words get in the way of exchanges. not a problem in casual dialogue. It gets one out of a familiar “box.”

As I hear one or two military jets over my house, as was the case a short time ago, I worry even though this is not unusual for where I am. On the other hand, if it were more than 3, I might be pacing the floor. I do care what people think and how they feel. I concentrate on a few issues because that is what I have mind and energy for, but I care about others. If Herr Bush were to reinstate the Draft, would you be eligible? Would that move you to care what others think and believe, with the prospect of being sent to h*ll on earth?

I understand your words better than you think. I too didn’t care what others thought. In fact, I almost made another serious mistake in a completely different situation from previous ones, but caught it in time. I couldn’t continue as I was. One thing hasn’t changed. I remain responsible for who I am and honest about it.
Unless someone is so independent in every way and chooses to remain emotionally aloof, there might come a time when what people think and how they act and handle feelings, could clash with that person’s world. It can go Poof, just like that.

Moving on. That is an option. a consideration. It can be like a physical confrontation. Once, a commitment is made and followed thru on 100%, then how does one move on from that? What if you come to harm and can’t continue as you were? What if you are neutralized? It depends where one is as to how the option of moving on is thought of or acted upon. In terms of the lineage issue, it’s a matter for the elders to hash out unless proof positive is forthcoming from another source. Nothing the matter with discussion, but the arguing is unfortunate. From that I believe we should certainly move on. Move on back to discussion, or to silence rather than continue it.

There is certainly validity to wanting to throw in the towel, and it can come down to pushing one’s ideas on others. That’s kind of like the last straw, but it often comes at the beginning. It’s in vain to push and argue in such a fashion; yet, this approach, one should admit, is not without successful application. I think that conformity and confrontation have many dynamics and intricate timing. grey areas. underestimating.
And while one might be tempted to turn away from trying to negotiate the unnegotiable, yet, this is sometimes the task. It might be that the negotiations need to become less focussed, such that the needs of all are met in some way. Compromise becomes attractive because of what comes with it. I don’t know. I’m not a mediator, though within one group I was nominated to be one. I would say it was fortunate at that time that I did not win the election.

While sitting in the circle, there should be rules which apply to all, but not a tyranny of rules. While sitting in the circle, there is something else besides disagreement to be shared. And though a couple of cups of tea might occasionally fly, in the end, we must sit together because we all have something to gain by that, and because it feels better than the alternatives in the long run. This acceptance might make less intense other needs.
I hope I’m not coming up with another utopia, after all this effort. Sh*t, I want to find something that can work! And, I still like my tea. It tastes fine.

take care,
Cody

10

Reflection of paradise on the flashing blade

For some, lineage debate is critical,

to others it is meaningless.

For some, conforming to rules of the majority is important,

to others, conforming to nature is important.

For some, killing with one strike is the burning ideal,

for others the appearance of skill is desired.

For some, sipping tea in a loud tea house is enjoyable,

for others sipping tea in a forest is fine.

Each person aims his arrow at what he wants.

Each person fills his cup with what he needs.

<If Herr Bush were to reinstate the Draft, would you be eligible? Would that move you to care what others think and believe, with the prospect of being sent to h*ll on earth? >

To me even the a bloody battlefield can be paradise. Life and death come and go. Perhaps I can see the reflection of paradise on the flashing blade.

<I too didn’t care what others thought.>

Most people just repeat what they are told in school, church or their society. They are usually messengers and amplifiers of someone elses cause. I care what people think only if it comes from their direct experience, otherwise they are just repeating things like a tape player.

<What if you come to harm and can’t continue as you were? What if you are neutralized? It depends where one is as to how the option of moving on is thought of or acted upon>

Avoid like a feather in the wind or attack like a bloodthirsty tiger, or be out of sight, out of mind ;-)))))

Cheers

Buddhapalm

11

To much high thought & words for me Cody & I only went to 6 grade & didn’t finish to help parents with money stuff so I’m a stupid man and don’t know much reading stuff. Sorry

12

Diamond Talons,

I don’t think you’re stupid. Many people haven’t had the Luxury of extended formal education. Sometimes it isn’t worth much anyhow. I respect you.

Look, the link I suggested is not as difficult to read as my stuff. In fact, it is simple. And, because it is, surpasses my skills. Okay?

We all have shortcomings. I write in a way that many do not understand. I try to be clear, and maybe some day I will be.
pleasure talking with you.

Cody

13

Buddhapalm,

:wink: Okay, even if we have disagreement. I’m content. But, I like my tea Both in the forest and in a loud tea house, with bird cages. Starbuck’s doesn’t have birdcages. I can deal with it. :slight_smile:

over and out,
Cody

14

Birdcages

Hi Cody,
I dont disagree or agree with you. I guess the point I have been focusing on is my belief that all beliefs and opinions are valid. Neither side of the coin is better… unless you are betting on heads or tails.

Therefore I dont disagree or agree with you. I have no bet, no stake, no gain, only the enjoyment of giving and recieving opinions. I guess we are all enrolled in Universe-City.

But seriously, I think the birds in the teahouse birdcages know who was the founder of Shaolin. Damm those noisy birds, they pooped on my ha-gow !

Cheers my friends.

Buddhapalm

15

You make good sense nospam & what you say about end of day is right & I stay out of politics as it is always a bad thing that I see come of it. Just me but I say word things & include lineage claims don’t put skill in my hands & don’t take skill out of my hands so why do that stuff & pride in hand is private matter & not for shouting in public.

16

taking a chance.

I would agree that there doesn’t appear to be appreciable progress. We are all entitled to opinion, to acknowledging the facts we accept, and for taking on faith. For me, the words “reasonable doubt” apply. I don’t know.

Public or private issues – this sort of dispute becomes untenable because we are not privy to all the information. Discussion, yes. Argument, for what? To show loyalty? One can feel and show loyalty to an art, an idea, a history, a person (any or all simultaneously), without what amounts to a feud.

I think that CLF, being part of the great heritage of Kung Fu, has many purposes and ways. It can be used in war, which is the most violent, formally declared act between a few people or many nations. While the physical aspects are of elegant beauty and effectiveness, CLF shares in, what I would term, undefinable powers which we can internalize for health, spiritual development, and Action derived from our most primitive and most elevated parts working in cooperation. This last part, is what concerns me the most. I will skip to a conclusion.

When we turn against each other, beyond simple disagreement. When we threaten each other and hurl insults, then we are damaging that which we hold dear, even as we seek to protect it. Here I make an assumption that this is the essence of martial arts that is greater than any one art or person, which we experience at whatever level we can in the art we study. Here, we have Choy Lay Fut, which I think is a wonderful art.

I’m not sure how this world works. I don’t believe in a divine power, and am rather iconoclastic. The arts, imo, are to defend. Not just against muggers, or the like. We aim for strong bodies and minds, which cannot be taken or otherwise turned. We don’t want what is good in us to be turned against ourselves and others. While I hesitate to define good, or evil for that matter, I refer to devotion, and honesty and a healthy fighting spirit which has standards in peace and in war. The human mind is complicated territory.

I’m saying that none of us should be the enemy. Some disruption, even a lot, is necessary (i.e., WWII). However, I worry that conflicts which turn Kung Fu brother against Kung Fu brother, destabilize personal and global relationships in ways that poison the well. The dispute takes over and anyone can lose a measure of control without realizing it.

I think the measure of one’s Kung Fu is more a matter of reasonable defense with skill (especially a degree of skill that gives alternatives, buys time, and can strike to the core of the opponent if needed), a thorough understanding of one’s intent, and a balance of heart which allows one to be most truly one’s self under all circumstances. To be your own person. To correct yourself, and give yourself and others the opportunity to do the same to live freely. To compromise. There’s enough room for all of us. There has to be, or we’re in trouble that Kung Fu will not help.

Cody

17

Flags in the wind

Kung Fu is the martial art of Man.

Man is by his very nature political.

Maybe we can all learn a little from the monks or hermits who do what they do without regard to all of the flags fluttering in the wind.

Then again maybe not.

Buddhapalm

18

You are an intelligent man, Nospam.

19

Well put Cody and Buddhapalm.

I suddenly feel as though I’m not alone.