Hello Again
Just wondering if anyone has an idea of how many monks there currently are. By ‘monk’ I mean fully ordained monks not disciples or laymen. It would also be fascinating to see the breakdown of monks by age. It would be good to know how many have been ordained during the new abbot’s reign and what generation is prevelent eg Xing etc.
Thanks
WushuSpear
Songshan
The number of fully ordained monks is still around 150-200, at least according to Venerable Yongxin himself when I asked him this very question two months ago. Keep in mind that some monks move on to or from other monastaries, some leave to return to civilian life after a while, and some get kicked out.
The number of nuns has grown a little. I think their were less than a 1/2 dozen in '99, but now there’s almost 2 dozen.
Role of Wushu Guan?
Thanks for the reply
I was wondering what the current role of the wushu guan, if any, is regarding current and future monks and nuns.
Thanks again
WushuSpear
The wushuguan
The Wushuguan, alongside many of the private schools, keep their own stable of warrior monks. These are the laymen disciples that you spoke of earlier - wuseng - “wu” as in wushu, meaning “martial.” Now this gets a little tricky because you have to understand the progression of things at Shaolin. Originally, thw wushuguan tapped several of the monks to work there, so among the early generations of wushuguan wuseng, there were monks. Also the earlier generation of wuseng were more intimately involved with the temple. But the wuseng have evolved away from the temple with the private schools. What makes things more tricky is that many of the private schools are run by monks and ex-monks. Shi Deyang’s school is a prime example. Deyang is fully indoctrinated and still keeps a room inside Shaolin Temple, but he also runs a school near the toll gate of Dengfeng. So each is an individual case. Each monk has his own story.
The nuns are very private. The wushuguan has no interaction with them. I’ve been trying to do an article on the nuns for several years, but the abbot has not permitted me to do so. There are only few of them, and they really keep to themselves.
Understandable
It understandable why the abbot would want to keep the nuns out of the very bright limelight surrounding the temple seeing the cult of celebrity surrounding certain monks.
Just my 2 cents
WushuSpear
any ideas about possible monks who are not native chinese, or at least chinese by heritage? i’m just curious if any non-native folks have made it to a substantial level. 
Shaolin has not accepted any non-Chinese monks yet
But they might soon. 
What about Shi Aguilar? He is non-Chinese, and I have seen him in several pictorials with other known monks. Apparently not ordained with a Buddhist name, but he might be, and I am just unaware of it.
thanks Gene ;). any idea what the highest level is that a non-Chinese has attained?
What about Shi Aguilar? He is non-Chinese, and I have seen him in several pictorials with other known monks. Apparently not ordained with a Buddhist name, but he might be, and I am just unaware of it.
If he hasn’t been ordained, why is he running around attaching “Shi” to his name?
‘Shi’ Prefix
In my limited understanding, ‘Shi’ isin’t limited to monks only but also their disciples who may be lay men eg Gene.
WushuSpear
Juan Carlos
Juan Carlos has performed with the warrior monks and is a layman disciple like myself (but with considerably more martial skill.) Like me, he has a disciple name, but I asked the Abbot point blank about foreign monks and while he was open to the idea, he stated clearly that no one has been accepted yet. Now, there are some foreign students currently studying kung fu and Buddhism inside Shaolin Temple now, but they are not officially indoctrinated as Shaolin monks. As for us disciples, I used the ‘Shi’ when I was first indoctrinated because my master gave me a sword with “Shi” as part of the name. I was later informed that it was improper for laymen disciple to use “Shi” by several monks, so I stopped.
Now this gets a little sticky with the warrior monks, who are technically laymen disciples, taking only a portion of the vows, but a bit higher up than us since they are chosen to represent the temple. Keep in mind that many of the performing monks that you see in the tours and shows aren’t even layman disciples - you can tell by their names. If they don’t use a disciple name like Xing, Yong, Yan etc. then their not disciples. Now the disciples that are official warrrior monks use “Shi.” Where does that leave Juan Carlos? Good question. Officially he is not recognised by the temple, but he is recognised by the warrior monks.
Gene,
you do realize that the more answers you give, the more questions we will have, right?
speaking of questions … 
… have you written anything, or stumbled upon a website or other goodness, that profiles what makes a person a student, lay disciple, monk, and all the other stages before, between and after?
Gene-
I am interested in knowing what, if any issues there are between the practice of Ch’an and the communist government of China.
Does the abbot have any hassles in regards to how the practice is disseminated to the people, or is it strictly regarded a educational or scholarly pursuit? Which in turn is only authorized to be studied by those who are essentially holding degrees in buddhist studies? In other words, is Ch’an freely spread and practiced in China by the Shaolin order?
Are not the buddhist practices walking a fine line with the communist party?
cheers
rub the lek
rtb: I realize that. I call it ‘job security.’
What makes someone a laymen disciple is that they have become a disciple of a recognized monk. It is a discipleship akin to any other martial discipleship (or any trade discipleship) but with Buddhist undertones. Disciples are distinguished as Buddhist or Warrior. Most of us are warrior.
What makes a monk is that they take all their vows and are indoctrinated into the temple. Today, and this answers some of Kung’s question, many monks will go through Beijing’s Guangji Temple, center for the Chinese Buddhist Association. Sometimes this is referred to as Buddhist college, which is probably where you’re getting your concept of degrees, and since it’s in Beijing, many feel that it is under the Communist control.
On the whole, practice of Buddhism in China is pretty free as long as you aren’t too much of a sect like Falun Gong (or catholicism :eek: .) Personally, I don’t think practice under Communist rule is that much different than under the Emperor’s. Looking at the Tang dynasty, Buddhism rose and fell from favor quite violently, and it still survived. Since Deng Xiaopeng, it has been legal to become a monk, and the faiths have thrived. Shaolin offers a very skewed perspective of Buddhism. It is still very vital there, but often overshadowed by the martial arts craziness. There are many other renowned Buddhist temples across China that are prospering.
Then there are the martial or warrior monks. They are technically laymen disciples, but elevated since they are chosen and trained to represent Shaolin’s martial arts. Most of the monks that the west is aware of are martial monks, because we are martial artists, and they interest us more. They do not necessarily take all of the vows.
Then to really confuse the issue, there are the performance monks. These are really monks at all, in fact, “performance monk” is a term I’ve just recently made up after my last trip. They are the wushu athletes and qigong stuntmen that you always read about. They are in the private schools and really have no connection with monkhood except for wearing robes. They don’t take vows, except in some personal cases. They are usually kept on stipend by the private schools.
There is also the ex-monks. Those can be warrior monks or fully indoctrinated monks. They give up their vows to persue a normal life, usually marriage.
Any more questions? 
Sourcing of monks
Thanks
WushuSpear
wushuspear
Those are all good questions, but there’s an underlying assumption that is a bit off. A temple order, especially a Chan temple, is more subjective, meaning each individual is looked upon as a unique case. It’s not standardized like like a belt exam. Now I’ve been studying case histories of the monks for almost a decade - interviewing them, cross referencing their stories with others, looking at written records - an each one has a complete different story. So it’s really hard to answer these questions simply.
Taking in consideration that there are three types of monks - fully indoctrinated, warrior, and performance - I’ll answer to the best of my ability. Keep in mind, I’m speaking in really broad generalities, and most cases are exceptions to these ‘rules.’
Performance monks are the easiest. They just come from the private schools. That is the entryway for pretty much everyone. Start with the laymen, then work your way up. Most performance monks are presented as monks at the demo, usually by the promoters, but if you ask themdirectly, they’ll say that they aren’t a monk…yet.
Warrior monks have typically been culled from the best of the private schools. Now this process has shifted over the years. The older generation of warrior monks were trained at Shaolin when it was much smaller, so they had a more ‘traditional’ experience. The younger warrior monks are being trained and selected differently, some without as strong of a chan basis as before. About a decade ago, warrior monks at the wushuguan were no longer required to maintain a meditation practice, which is a significant shift. I’m not sure if this has been reverted with the new lean towards more chan.
Only a few schools are officially permitted to train warrior monks, but some schools are run by monks, and I think they can bend the rules a little. As far as I can tell, no one is keeping a roster of warrior monks. There is definately no roster of performance monks - that would be impossible given the nature of the private schools. Keep in mind, these schools are in constant competition, and star students, both as performers and champions, are traded amongst schools like athletes in pro sports. So, in a nutshell, the warrior monks excel as students in the private schools, often as a perfromance monk, then are selected for more intensive training. Then, assuming they thrive, they are taken in by a monk as a warrior disciple.
Fully indoctrinated monks are the trickiest. I know that some are culled from the warrior monks. I’m not sure about this, but I assume that some come from other temples. It’s not uncommon for monks to move from temple to temple, staying for a while to learn, then moving on. It’s a big decision to take all the vows - not just as a Shaolin monk, but as a Buddhist monk. I certainly haven’t been able to do so.
Standardization doesn’t really exist at Shaolin…yet. At least not they way you are thinking about it. Standardize Chan? Better read Tamo again. That’s not what it’s about. In fact, if you look at almost any Shaolin set - hong quan, lohan quan - and you’ll get a different set. But as I said, yet. You’ll have to read my upcoming article on this (come on, I’m not going to give out all the secrets without a tease for the mag )
Great post Gene, good questions ws…
I was wondering a bit about some of that stuff.
good stuff Gene. next question:
you’ve mentioned several misconceptions lots of us have about shaolin – what do you think some of the other more blatant, or more subtle yet immensely important, misconceptions are?
The Abbot’s Role
Thanks for the great replies Gene.
My knowledge of Chan is limited to what I’ve read on this and similiar pages so some of my questions will be off. My next question seeing as from my understanding of your answers as to sourcing of monks, what control over this process does the current abbot have in this? Following on this, how much does the abbot ‘control’ the warrior and fully ordained monks? I get that he’s more or less in charge of the buildings and the current renovations are due to his efforts. I’d like to know with many monks living off the temple grounds, owning their own schools and a growing number overseas what, if any, measure of control does he have over them.
Thanks again
WushuSpear