All this B.S. about who trained with Monks. Do you think because you train with a so called Monk your any better off than training with someone else. Sounds to me like you guys are trying to validate what it is you study and elevate yourselves beyond the rest of the Kungfu community. Ya know I saw Yan Ming and his students and it reminded me of some of the Ninja schools around town. The expression on my face was that of “man I hope these guys never get into any cuz they will get dusted”. So again what is the relevance of whether or not you train with a monk?
Monks know that there’s more to kung fu than just fighting.
Yan Ming Demo
Yan Ming is a master of selling his visual presentation. Hence the success of his school. Also, his fighting technique (as I learned, anyway) is very simple, similar to Bruce Lee. Maybe 5 basic kicks, 3 punches, and forms to create strength, speed, and chi.
The demos are just his wushu style.
I’m assuming you guys are from NYC any schools you recommend this is directed to the people who’ve been to Yan Mings.
“There are no shortcuts in Kung Fu only long days of Hard Work.”
Schools in NYC
There are almost 100 martial arts schools in NY. It’s so hard to recommend any of them, since we all have our own personal tastes and tolerances.
The web and a local yellow pages are your best leads. My last search took two years of watching classes, taking classes, and moving around.
reemul relax
hey we are only trying to share experiences with each other, no one ever said training with the monks was better than with anyone else. it would be like if you made contact with maybe another one of your masters students student( i phrased it this way because you said your master is your teachers teacher)and you wanted to know his/her experience and training techniques. so back off, we know you don’t think the monks are real and know no real kungfu, you post it on every forum, yet to discuss your lineage and such…it is secret, well i sure get tired of your posts because you won’t share any details with us. it seems to me you are the one trying to elevate yourself above the rest of the martial community by discrediting everyone else’s teachers. i mean after 12 years of studying your heart isn’t settled…you still try to deface others.
you are in dallas right, well i will be there this weekend for the jimmy wong tournament. i would love to meet you and talk about shaolin and such…you can even talk to my curent sifu, shi xing hao. if you think he only know wushu then you are sadley mistaken. he would be willing to discuss things with you too. now this isn’t any kind of challenge, like your take it to the mat attitude you had before. this is an invitation for a mature discussion. if you want to meet, email me privately at kungfudork@kungfudork.com
respect to all,
dieter wagner
The return of reemul
You vanished off my “trained with shaolin monks thread.” I was beginning to wonder.
I don’t think I even implied that training with a monk makes you better than training with someone else - in fact that would be a little hypocritcal coming from me, since I train with someone else myself. What is interesting to me is how Shaolin is spreading, especially in the face of such skepticism. I just wanted to see who trained with monks to create some dialog - after all, that’s what the forum is for, eh? According to my infopop monthly report for May, it was the most popular topic of the month. And I admit, I’m very pleased with that. Now what to post as a follow up…
Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com
So far removed
>>Monks know that there’s more to kung fu than just fighting
Says who?
>>Yan Ming is a master of selling his visual presentation. Hence the success of his school. Also, his fighting technique (as I learned, anyway) is very simple, similar to Bruce Lee. Maybe 5 basic kicks, 3 punches, and forms to create strength, speed, and chi
Sounds to me like he doesn’t know much and if thats all he gets out of forms, sounds to me like he doesn’t understand the depth of the material. Oh yeah, thats right the material left with the masters in in their exodus from China in 1928-1933.
To Kungfu ****: What irritates me about these new monks is their ties to the old school is weak, their knowledge of the Shaolin systems before the communist take over is fragmented beyond repair. I could careless whether they are monks or not, it is their Shaolin kungfu knowledge that concerns me. A monk is merely a religeous icon, but after that 14 year old boy was beaten to death by one of the “monks” at Shaolin temple it does make me wonder about their lagitamacy. I have also noticed that more people coming to the defense of the PRC lately, however I also noticed more and more of these “monks” leaving their simple lives to come to the U.S. To make some serious Cash.
>>You vanished off my “trained with shaolin monks thread.” I was beginning to wonder
Well Gene, I have a life. I’m ivolved in two films right now, and training for a San Shou tournament in Houston providing I can find out when it is, my contact is dificult to get a hold of and I havn’t been able to find anything on the Inet. I am also training for the Ironman and working relaunching my music career. So if I seem to vanish again you know why.
reemul, how do you know
reemul how do you know that the ties of todays monks are week…have you spent time with these monks you discredit or do you blindly follow the word of someone else. where is your proof other than what you have heard or been told. maybe with some of the people at and around shaolin today the ties are week, but there are 10,000+ practioners around and in the temple ranging in ages from 3-80+, so how can you speak for them all. how can you assume they know anything of real shaolin, how can you speak for the old men who have lived in or around shaolin temple thru the cultural revolution and whose families have lived and passed on shaolin kungfu from before 1928. can you really tell us about everyone of these people, have you ever really been in the area, have you ever met these monks you discredit, have you met these masters that have lived generations deep in shaolin village. to me it sounds as though you only speak from what you have been told by your teacher or master…i am willing to listen to what info you have from your master, but you won’t share that…you seem to tiptoe around any real discussion, maybe you do have some good info but it is a secret( sounds fishy to me). you seem to know so much of how china really works, yet you haven’t been there…hmmm, that one seems a bit immature. i mean most people in other countries feel that in the US you can do anything, you are free, true freedom…but you and i know that isn’t true. we know that our gov’t isn’t always for the people and truethful. you have to live here to know how things really work…you need to live in china to know how it really works. so i still look forward to a good discussion with you, if you ever have anything to say other than what you think happend pre 1928 at shaolin. lets talk about what makes your style shaolin, what are the characteristics of shaolin, not forms but the core concepts…
dieter wagner
in reemuls defense
he as well as i have questions about the validity of these so called “monks” just as certain individuals have certain questions about the validity of a certain school that i am trying to figure out…mypost in the subject of who has trained with a monk,reflects what i have studied and what i have been told from eyewitness accounts of the shaolin temple in china and of the monks. CHINA is Communist,and the communist goverment controls EVERYTHING there. get that through your heads folks. the shaolin temple would not have been opened back up for viewing if the communist government didnt want it to be so.
also,it is a TOURIST ATTRACTION,that rakes in income for the government as well as the upkeep of the temple,as in toilets and such,running water,electricity..we;ll you need these things to keep an amusement park going. i would encourage all of you to read the history of MAOist
doctrines in china. it is very sad what has happened to the people of china as well as tibet.
China is also in economically depressed, and is starting to CAPITOLIZE on tourism and trade. money goes in to china it does not go out of the country. WE have known about the history of shaolin for only 30 yrs in this country,remember bruce lee? and where did we learn about the shaolin temple in the beginning? TV. remember KUNG-FU? and after the success of the show all these books started coming out on the subject out of nowhere and they all told a different story to us, NIxon helped to open the doors of trade and travel to china. china’s reason for going communist was to abolish the monarchy and get with the rest of the industrial world…now with all of these FACTS in mind we turn to the shaolin temple and monks. the temple is more popular where in in the world,is it china? do they ALL sit around and dream about the shaolin temple? its AMERICA WHO HAS PROPAGATED THE TEMPLE
andit is CHINA THAT CAPITOLIZES ON OOUR SENSE OF THE GRANDIER. remember what was in this country before kung-fu? JUDO, KARATE, JUIjuitsu. Were they being capitolized on by the japanese..nope. not at the time… MONKS,oh yes i almost forgot the monks. i have seen"REAL" monks, i have been with buddhist monks(thai). THese shaolin Momks are not MONKS,theyre dressed up to be as that for it brings in the money from the blue eyed fantasy seekers and movie fanatics.
nothing more.
1o
[This message was edited by R. on 06-04-01 at 10:33 PM.]
good points Willow Sword.
I think a number of posters are trivializing the scale and thoroughness of the the cultural revolution.Early estimates put the numbers at 2 million victims. Recent evidence has put the true number at 10 times that. These numbers have been concealed from the rest of the world for decades. The fact is, the Chinese Cultural Revolution is the largest mass murder in the twentieth century. I would like to underline the world CULTURAL because
it very much included the traditional martial arts and in particularly those connected in anyway with religion. It truly is a miracle that any traditional martial arts remain in the PRC.
The central point of the 1960’s Cultural Revolution was to get rid of the old culture. This was ONE serious attempt and it was largely very successful. (Aspects of the objectives in that revolution remains to this very day).
The body count is estimated at around 20 million, which is unsurpassed in world history. The scale and implications of this fact is something that is very difficult to grasp. Most people do not. What remained of Shaolin in the PRC is but remnants.
What training was done was in all probably very minimal if it did take place at all during this time. What remained of Shaolin martial arts after this horrific human tragedy are scattered pieces.
Even today the PRC leadership is categorically against the concept of lineage that isn’t under their direct control. In other words the curriculum that is used is the product of a committee that has research what remains of the
traditional arts and identified forms they feel represent Songhan Shaolin curriculum.
Second point not every monk at Shaolin did martial arts in fact most know no or little martial arts. Third point - the centra l focus of monks and nuns life was not
martial arts but Buddhism. This idea that a bunch of seventy year olds were getting together and risking their lives and children they may have been tutoring to train wushu is a big big stretch. So when certain M onks from the PRC make claims that
they trained in traditional Shaolin martial arts during Cultural Revolution I can only
react with utter disbelieve.
No true martial arts lineages exist in the PRC. The PRC just would not, well not, stand for it. Any o rganization outside their full control is not tolerated. That’s why the Fulon organization fried them. This is why the Vatican freaks them out. Oh yes there is a Roman Catholic Church in the PRC. The official RC Church in the PRC is run by a PRC comm ittee which is why the PRC’s RC Church is not recognized by the Vatican. To this very day the underground Catholic Church is being persecuted. The Tienimen Square slaughter was not just political incident invented by the West.
Sadly, it appears that e ven the US wants to ignore it for political reasons of their own.
Most in the West erroneously think that at most 200 people were shot in Tenimen!
I’m sorry taking a trip out to China (as one poster put it ) is not evidence of the what is really going on. The PRC hid 18 million murders for 4 decades from the international community and you think staying at the the Shaolin Hotel for a couple of weeks gives one the true picture. Guess again.
Kind regards
r.
the nature of communism and religion
reemul: Well, that’s cool you have a life and I truly mean that in all earnesty. You’ll have to let us know about the progress of those films, your music and the Ironman. I’m always genuinely fascinated with how CMa affects other media such as those.
And while you’re in Houston for that Sanshou, you should really stop by and visit Deshan and Xinghao. Meet these monks face-to-face and see their traditional stuff. Dieter is there too. Then let us know what you think.
willow sword & r: Communism doesn’t work like most westerners imagine, especially in China. China is too big to be ruled by any government. It’s a problem that has plagued it for thousands of years. So it’s not like Orwell at all - it’s more like High Noon. Posse mentality. Local sheriffs and small fiefdoms. Away from the congested cities, the fastest draw wins, and in China, we aren’t talking about guns, we are talking kungfu. Seriously, I have witnessed more street fights in China than any other place. Challenges go down at Shaolin a lot. They are tried and tested by fighters of all caliber, all the time. So it’s very hard for me to believe that PRC kungfu is some charade after witnessing kungfu street fights, at Shaolin and all across China.
As for Shaolin’s tourist attraction status, tourism was a direct result of Deng reformations and revitalized some of the damage done from the CR. While the CR was certianly one of the the most horrible events in human history, one has to understand the context - why and how it happened - and understand that it was not successful - Chinese communism never achieved Mao’s ultimate goal of true democracy (but then given our last election, neither did we.) But of the 2,000,000+ tourists, less than 1% is non-PRC, so it’s really not for Westerners at all. In fact, I think that’s what offends most non-chinese, shaolin is not really westerner-friendly. But then, every religious site is tourist. In fact, the most tourist plagued place I have ever been was Bodh Gaya. And yet I still found some meaning there, validifying my pilgrimage. Tourism and holy sites are not mutually exclusive at all, in fact they are usually hand-in-hand and have been so for centuries.
It’s funny that you mention Thai monks. My experience at Wat Po found Thai monks to be some of the most eclectic, drinking beers and bbqing in the temple. Especially after that horrible embezzlement scandal that happened in Thailand recently, I’m surprised you used them as an example. Most all Thai males enter monastic life for a short period during their lives, so that changes their attitude towards being a monk. They are often average people, full of vice and delusion, but on the path. And despite their digressions, they are real monks too.
Chan buddism is really unique. Just as Tamo answered to the Emperor, there is no doctrine. So to paraphrase Herrigal, we enter the path of chan (zen) through different means. Kungfu is just another means. It is a Decartian view separates the wen and wu. While wenseng and wuseng exist, it is like taiji, there is a little yin in the yang and vice versa, not black and white, but a spectrum between polarities with all the dynamism existing along the transition.
Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com
No disrespect Gene, but we live in a Republic…thank goodness. 
If anyone tries to institute a “ultimate goal of true democracy” in this country I suspect a civil war will result.
Sorry to hop off topic, I found R. and The Willow Sword’s posts absolutely fascinating. The more recent history of China isn’t something my instructor delves too deeply into…and, of course, no one mentioned it during my school days. And it’s always nice to hear from someone that’s “been there” Gene. Great posts guys.
-Radhnoti
GENE
I for one do not deny anyones martial abilities there at the “temple”. but the fact still remains that the idea of true Shoalin in a communist dictatorship is still a very impossible idea. As has been proven before that the “Monks” there are Wushu artists that dress up as monks to entertain.
As for being a western unfriendly place,i agree whole heartedly with that. BUT i guarantee you this: if i were a westerner with 10,000 dollars in my pocket i would be welcomed there with open arms and bright eyed smiles. As for your comments about the street fights that go on there all the time. take a trip to oakland CA or Compton,or the ward districts of houston. tell me the difference. aside from us having guns in our kids hands and them armed with knives and whatever else. most economically depressed countries will have this element to them,it has nothing to do with the “kung-fu” mentality. this whole subject is about SHAOLIN MONKS. The Thai Monks have a different system than the chinese monks as well as the vietnamese monks and the tibetan monks and so on and so forth. but the fact still remains that they are freely practicing individuals in a country and government who allows them to do so. i dont know where you have seen the thai monks you speak of gene but that is not the case where i have been and what i have seen of them. they are some of the mist humble and peacefull people i have ever come across9 i dont care if they have bbqs or drink beer. anyway i am ranting and i will stop.
MAny Respects,willow sword
who proved?
willow sword,
who proved that all the monks are wushu atheletes dressed up. i stayed at shaolin for over a month in 1996, and there are more than 10,000 students training in a square mile area. there are many different schools that are all associated with shaolin, some former monks, some disciples of monks, some are families that have lived in this area for decades(pre-1928). i do agree that not everyone dressed as a monk in shaolin village is one. many times you see students at some of these schools dressed as monks doing demonstrations and such on their school grounds. these people don’t just walk around dressed like this all the time and they don’t walk around inside the temple dressed like this either. some of these schools put on tours and claim to be monks, but usually are not, they just come from shaolin village. but as for the monks that live and train inside the temple, they are real monks and some practice more kungfu than others and some practice more buddhism than kungfu. my sifu said he only spent about 2-3 hours a day studying with his buddhist teacher(who didn’t practice kungfu) and spent about 8 hours a day training his kungfu. the monks who perform and train foreigners at the wushu quan are from the temple, not from the other schools in the area. usually the way the monks at the temple are chosen is by being a student of a current monk. i believe one of the reasons abbot shi yong xin is trying to clean up the area is partly because of the misconception of who is a monk and who isn’t. imagine trying to control thousands of people in such a small area, so the best way is to make them leave(i guess). as for the monks who are in the states, they are all from the temple…not from a school in the village. so to say it has been proven that they are all wushu athletes is just an impossible fact.
willow sword, are you in the houston area. come join our morning adult class with shi xing hao and tell me that i am learning contemporary wushu. we only learn traditional shaolin in this class, the contemporary wushu is a seperate night class. i have done both classes and there is a huge difference between the two. so for you to claim my teacher is only a contemporary wushu athlete, is a big misconception on your part. come down and see for yourself, if you still feel the same way then i will respect your opinion, but until you have met and trained with one of these monks i don’t feel you have the knowledge/experience to discredit them. don’t just group all the monks and people in shaolin village together. they are all individuals with all different levels of shaolin kungfu. it would be like me assuming you and reemul are the same type of person because you both discredit the monks, that would just be an immature concept on my part. so judge these people as individuals after you have some experience with them, not just clump them all together in a prejudice way.
respect to all,
dieter wagner
kungfudork@kungfudork.com
Whats at issue
>>Challenges go down at Shaolin a lot. They are tried and tested by fighters of all caliber, all the time. So it’s very hard for me to believe that PRC kungfu is some charade after witnessing kungfu street fights, at Shaolin and all across China.
The question is not whether their kungfu is effective, the question is, are they the true inheiriters of Shaolin Kungfu, a brand of kungfu that spans hundreds of generations and benefitting from centuries of undiluted research and developement. Considerring what I have seen from them, I would have to say no.
When the communist government was taking over, the Shaolin temple was split as to whether the new government was going to interfere with the Temple. The masters for the most part were in agreement that the new government was going to interfere with the Shaolin temple. However some of the students felt otherwise. When it was found out that the promenant heads of the Shaolin family systems were on a hit list, the debate ended and the masters left the country. This is evident in that these systems no longer exist at the new PRC Shaolin Temple, thus ending the line of undiluted martial research at Shaolin temple. Jet Li testifies that on location at the temple during the filming of his movie “Shoalin Temple” that aside from a grounds keeper a cook and the abbot, the temple was pretty much abandoned, as it was said to be by our master. Occording to our master their were a few masters that stayed behind, but they were on lock down by the PRC. Between 1933-1970 No one went in or out. By the time people were showing up because of the success of Jet Li’s movie, these guys were too old to teach the sum of their knowledge to fresh students, as Well the PRC came in, realizing this was a tourist trap, and rebuilt the temple with tourism in mind, not restoring it to what it once was.
To Kungfudork (I don’t know why they blanked your name the last time) but anyway. You don’t know where I’ve been, You don’t know what I’ve seen. As I have told you in the past our family history is guarded for the time being simply because with all the contraversy in the CMA community and the travesty of karate schools in the 70’s changing their history and claiming to be kungfu due to the popularity of Bruce Lee, We would like to avoid theft of our material and history until we have a means of legally and effectively protecting what is ours. When that happens I will tell you guys everything and you can tell me how full of I am at that time. Some things I won’t discuss simply because it’s not my place. As for our master, he likes being anonymous and enjoys his privacy, so he will remain nameless.
yeah!!!
YEAH YEAH!!! what REEMUL SAID kungfudork.
haha i dont think i mentioned your teacher in the postings,i dont even know who you are. i apologize if i insulted your teacher and you,that was not my intention. no i am not in the houston area i am a 20 yr austinite living in
new mexico now but i have been to the grand ole toilet that is houston. sorry to say but houston is a humid hot polluted babylon…woo am i raving? goodness gracious me,im sorry. uhh what you guys do at your school is fine with me i have no judgement about it. so you stayed at the temple. did you like the televisions they had there in the rooms? i remember the bruce lee movie enter the dragon,on han’s island no one was allowed out after dark,was it like that there? im sorry i am being a **** as well,ill stop,Many respects, willow sword :rolleyes:
Geneching and kungfudork, you guys have actually TRAINED with Shaolin monks and thus are the authorities on this.
I know one thing: Any kung fu man or sifu who goes out to degrade other styles is NOT WORTHY of the Shaolin moniker.
I applaud the Shaolin monks and their disciples Geneching and kungfudork for demonstrating the restraint and respect that is exemplary of the name “Shaolin”.
:rolleyes: