Hi:
In this forum, posted some months ago, someone said that there is no foreign warrior monk named in Shaolin Temple.
However, in 1997, 3 Argentinians were initiated as warrior monks in Shaolin Temple, all of them disciples from Shi Yong Kan (Lu Hai Long), trained at Shaolin Shuiku Wushu Xuexiao (Shaolin Dam School or something like that):
Shi Yan Bao (Carlos Aleman), Shi Yan Long (Jorge Bussi), (the third I don’t remember the name).
I think they were the first foreign warrior monks in Shaolin Temple.
A lot of this arose from my interview with Venerable Abbot Shi Yongxin in our Nov/Dec 2003 Shaolin Special issue. The statement was as follows:
GC: Many non-Chinese claim to be “official” representatives of Shaolin Temple. Some have gone so far to claim that they are Shaolin Monks. Have you ever accepted a non-Chinese monk?
Abbot: So far, we have not received any foreign people to be a monk, but perhaps in the future, when our facilities improve, perhaps we will. According to Buddhism, every being has the wisdom of Buddha and this has no nationality.
This caused somewhat of a stir, since many people claim to be monks. This needs to be qualified - When I discussed this with the Abbot, we were talking more about fully indoctrinated monks, not warrior monks. His answer was a bit ambiguous (and there is at least one person I know who claims to be a fully indoctrinate Shaolin monk who is not Chinese).
In terms of warrior monks, I’m still not exactly sure who certifies people with this title. In that same issue, Grandmaster Liang Yiquan claimed to be the only private school authorized to teach layman disciples (see page 55). In an article I published in our Jan Feb 2004 issue called Shaolin’s Second Wave, Xingzhen and Yanfei talked about how they got their titles for the demonstration tours. The former only claimed being a disciple under Deling and Deren, monks who were with the Shaolin Temple Wushuguan. The latter is a disciple of Yongxin.
I know of several people who claim that they have been certified as Warrior monks, but haven’t been able to validate that. Nor am I even confident that their is some sort of way to validate it - I’m not confident that a record is kept, at least not one that is universal for all of Shaolin. So the warrior monk title is somewhat dubious, and perhaps even getting more muddled now than before. Now I don’t doubt or question their claims, either. It is entirely possible, even credible. The tricky thing is that the Shaolin community is so huge - I mean really, when one school can claim 13,000 students in a year, and that’s just one of 80 registered schools nearby, not counting all the unregisitered schools and the ones that are ****her away, it’s very hard to get a straight answer out of Shaolin, not to mention the whole zen koan aspect. I suppose that’s one reason I study it - it never ceases to fascinate me.
When I get up the money and time and freedom. I want to attend a Shoalin Institute for 4 to 8 years. Even though I know it might kill me I kinda like the fact of seeing how close I can be to a point of breaking in nerve. It has been my life goal to die in beautiful China when I’m like super-old.
I doubt if in 8 years I can become a warrior monk, but if so knowing myself I’ll stress myself out taking it to another level.
I’ve heard of one myself. I guess until if ever it’s verified you cant really dispute it. I’ve also heard that for the first time in shaolins history that the abbot has been diosmissing or stripping monks of titles etc, because of behaviour unfit. Better 10 troups you know have your back, than 500 so-so’s ha.
Does all this mean that having my picture taken while looking mean and wearing my orange pants doesn’t make me a monk?
****. Maybe if I shave my head or something…
I don’t know the exact warrrior monk vows, but I do know that they are akin to disciple vows and some Buddhist vows. My understanding is that includes chastity. I’ve been trying to find out more about this. Let me get back to you.
As for kicking monks out, the present Abbot is doing that, but I understand that it has been down before. Keep in mind that this is only the 3rd Abbot Shaolin has had in several centuries…
it’s right about here that I’m going to have to pull you up Gene on an earlier comment…
So the aim of the martial monk is to preserve ma ha? And here’s me thinking that it was to protect / save the people and assist them to nirvana, “remaining unitl can take all sentient beings with”…m/a being only a facilitating aspect of that…I guess your not wrong…just not entirely correct…
Don’t look now but I think your lay side’s showing :eek:
oompa loompa dopudy doo - I have another koan for you
The aim of a bodhisattva is akin to
“remaining unitl can take all sentient beings with”…
but all monks are not bodhisattvas. Many of the monks are more like Arhats - deep in a world of personal asceticism. They don’t remain. They go on. Their aim is the martial arts, not necessarily assisting others to nirvana. This is still a practice of Buddhism, in a way. Many warrior monks leave the brotherhood and take their martial arts study elsewhere. They go on too. Case and point, ex-monk Zhang Lipeng
but Lipeng, in his duty of honour to his beliefs, while declaring that he believes buddhism in his heart, freely gave up his “title” of warrior monk and now declares ex-monk…I really dont have at the moment for further comment, but I’ll consider the rest of your arguement / post for later
Hey people, i’m new here. I’ve read a lot of threads here and well, this is just excellent. Talking about Shalolin monks all-around America i’d like to ask what’s your opinion about these non-chinese monks:
Culture may play a role, race does not. Even asking the question comes off as somewhat racist. There is no question. If they believe it, and put in the work, they are monks. Simple.
To become a monk is to throw away your old life in exchange for a new one.
In the past people did this because they had nothing to begin with, or they were in trouble or because they had done something terrible or in the rarest cases because the were looking for spiritual realisation.
Any way, it is about sacrifice. To discard everything you know and start again.
Are these people monks? I don’t know, you would have to look at the way they live their lives.
One time for Halloween, I dressed in a monk costume I got from China. My two friends dressed as Monkey and Pig. We got really drunk and had a good time.
That is hilarious, pazman. If I can get some friends in on it, I’m poaching that.
Interesting thread topic, HmorenoM. In regards to this subject, technically speaking, to be considered as a fully-ordained Shaolin Monk, you must have the Abbot’s blessing, as by definition, that officially signifies acceptance by the monastic brotherhood of Shaolin today. There are many of us Shaolin Disciples that have called themselves ‘monks’ (I have called myself the real ‘fake’ monk, but only in jest). I have asked the Abbot directly about how many laowai have been officially ordained, and he is always very diplomatic about the answer. I haven’t asked him about it in a while as it’s a waste of a question.
Note that there is a difference between ‘Non-Chinese Shaolin Monks’ and ‘Non-Chinese Buddhist Monks’. There are plenty of the latter.
Here are two previous relevant threads: Yanfan (Franco Testini)
(note also The First American Branded at Shaolin Temple By Melissa Leon-Guerrero in our Shaolin Special 2007)
None of these were full ordinations, but rather secular disciple ceremonies.
They are not monks (at least by these ceremonies).
The difficulty is that Shaolin is one of the few Chinese traditions that give secular disciples monastic names, whereas usually the Shi family name (short for the Chinese transliteration of kyamuni) is reserved for the fully ordained. Secular disciples often have a separate generational naming scheme, but in Shaolin it is the same as the fully ordained.
But looking at the ceremonies;
First of all, one monk alone cannot perform the ordination ceremony for another like this. It takes 10 fully ordained monks, i.e. “3 teachers and 7 witnesses” ().
The three teachers include the “preceptor” who confers the precepts, the “chairman” who recites description of the ceremony, and the “instructor” who teaches the ceremonial manner.
The seven witnesses attest to the ordination, that it was valid and conducted properly. At least seven monks are required, unless in distant locations where it is not possible, in which case at least two witnesses are required.
In the first video the initiate did not even learn to perform a proper prostration. If this were a full ordination ceremony with all required attendees, it was still not conducted properly and thus null and void.
To confirm anyone’s ordination you may simply ask for names of their 3 teachers and 7 witnesses. They should have a copy of this on their official certificate of ordination. Otherwise, as secular disciples what they will have is a refuge certificate like the first guy was given that will just name their refuge master.
Wow… thanks for the answers, and well, i didn’t ask for being racist it was just for curiosity, i’m just asking to people that i know that knows more than i do. And thanks again, LFJ, Gene, Ren…
