here are mine. 1. ive said before that stance training does not build power moreso it stores power, that is why olympic lifters may not use it, yet you do not truly know do you? 2. how can you say that professional fighters do not use stance training? one reason why you do not understand stance training is because you are probably just a muscle head focused to much on physical strength, stance training builds balance needed to execute techniques with power. weight lifting is good i guess for strength training, but stance training will help you learn how to shift your weight into an attack without moving your feet, or jumping into it. tell me what weight lifting exercise can you do to improve your ability to shift your body weight. tell me a weight training exercise that will improve your fighting skill, there are none. im not saying stance training is the ultimate training exercise,although to some it may be. im saying that stance training will make you a better fighter, not able to lift more weight,or jump higher,although i gained about 3 inches on my jump. you are right that im not a physiologist or a physicist but i know i am in touch with my inner as well as outer body,so unless im trying to get a job in any of those fields. i dont need it.
Please explain to me the physiological implications of “storing” power. How does this process work in the muscle? What role does the central nervous system play in this process? Which types of muscle fibers are involved? What is happening on a cellular level? How is the metabolism involved? How is it measured and tested?
I think the horse stance is great training for Kung Fu. In fact, it is integral to the art. The difference it has from squating is that you are sinking your bodyweight, feeling the relaxation, which is a mental training aspect, as well as developing will power. The way your chain of joints and muscles from the toes through the knees, hips, shoulders, and spinal column creates a strength building of a subtle way that challenges the structure to be integrated as a whole. This has carry over to the other elements of training such as forms, sparring, and daily life when your body can respond as an integrated unit for every day activities. I
I don’t believe that weight lifting can give one all of these attributes. However, I’ve got nothing against weight lifting and don’t believe those superstitions about flexibility and such, but I think that as an element of training, many people over-emphasize the strength element over the integrated relaxation of stance and form training. This creates some tense people!
World class athetes are competing to be the best in a specific way, some train at more than one sport but usually specialize in only one. This integration is not necessary for them to train in, they need to have very fast legs, not a good rooted stance.
Boxers, wrestlers and other combat atheletes all train their legs and integrated body in one way or another with similar intents. They all want to be able to root when they hit or grab or throw so that they are solid and deliver enough force
Dude, I’ve never heard of a powerlifter who didn’t know the difference between a squat and a leg-press. It’s certainly alright to have an opinion that differs from the norm, or even to be ignorant on a subject you claim to know something about. On the other hand, lying and name calling don’t do much to support the validity of an opinion…
The other thing about horse stance is that people usually tuck their pelvis under and straighten their back to “promote qi flow” or whatever. That may be fine and well for promoting qi flow (after all, in standing post qigong you keep a straight back), but it’s a bad habit to get into when it comes to needing strength. Your back is very strong when it’s arched (pelvis sticking out) and very weak when it’s elongated, so this is just more proof that a horse stance isn’t similiar to picking something up. It’s also the reason you arch your back when squatting and deadlifting.
No Ironfist. You know the difference between a squat and a leg-press, are not lying about your abilities, and haven’t answered honest questions with insulting names.
That’s what I get for sticking my nose where it dosen’t belong. I have a cold and don’t feel like beating this dead ol’ horse. Please ignore the peanut gallery and carry on.
How about I give you a clue instead. Have you ever heard of standing? Not standing up. The kung fu practice of standing.
If that guy is right that there is no point in doing a horse stance for more than 2 minutes, why does the practice of standing even exist?
The more I think about that guy the more I laugh. Come on dood. Asian people been doing horse stance for a long time. Then you come along and with your wisdom you declare “there is no point in doing a horse stance for longer than two mintues”.
Can’t you see how foolish that sounds? Asians been stupid for hundreds of years? Just waiting for you to come along and tell them how it is done?
Obviously you lack the analytical thinking abilities to understand what I’m talking about.
As I said, practicing to stand in a horse stance for long periods of time will make you better at standing in a horse stance for long periods of time. From a physiological perspective, the skill won’t carry over to much else for reasons we already touched on a few pages ago.
Who cares how long “Asians” have been doing it? Time and tradition don’t hold scientific weight. People used to think the earth went around the sun. “Do you know how long people had been thinking that” when a new theory came about? Does it matter?
It depends on what your goals are. If you want to be able to hold a horse stance for a long time, then by all means, go practice holding your horse stance for a long time. But if you want increased strength and power, you’d be wasting your time in doing so. People don’t even use horse stance in fighting (I mean real fighting, not that slappy stuff they do in McKwoons).
The world is doomed. So many people these days have no clue about martial arts. They think martial arts is UFC and MMA and weightlifting.
“A bad habit when it comes to needing strength”, oh man I am laughing.
Why don’t you go talk to a chiropractor about what happens if you submit the spine to a heavy load and it’s not arched?
But go ahead and believe all the kung fu people and all the “sifu says” crap. After all, kung fu people are the ones who tell you to “lift things with your tendons” (which we all know is impossible) when you’re training, or to throw a punch without using any muscle tension (also impossible) which is why I always say “never learn about physiology from a martial artist.”
btw, martial arts is about fighting and winning, at least in my opinion. If you’ve practiced an art for any length of time and can’t fight with it you’ve been wasting your time. The ones who drone on and on about body mechanics and soft energy and qi and spiraling palms and blah blah blah are the ones who usually can’t beat a boxer with 1 month of training.
Anyway, if I thought you were honest about wanting to learn then we could have a decent discussion, but you’re either one of those closed minded “sifu is always right” drones or you’re just trolling for fun, so either way it doesn’t matter what any of us say.
Man, you guys are all discussing different points here! Here are the main points as I see it.
Horse stance training will make you better at horse stance.
Horse stance (and other stance training) with a straight back is essential for qi cultivation in qi gong practice and power and alignment in kung fu.
Extended horse stance will NOT make you stronger at lifting heavy weights.
Lifting heavy weights WILL make you stronger at lifting heavy weights.
Lifting heavy weights will NOT make you better at horse stance.
When you lift a heavy weight, you arch the spine to protect it from injury.
When you are doing stance training, you are not lifting a heavy weight.
In order to fight well, you do need to understand body mechanics, alignment, relaxed power, etc. This doesn’t mean that you don’t also need to be strong.
Therefore:
To increase strength and power, lift weights.
To increase stance ability and develop your kung fu and qi gong practice, use stance training. Stance training should also include training to move the stances, in other footwork. I’m sure everyone will agree that good footwork is essential to good fighting.
These things are not mutually exclusive - you should do both if you are serious about your kung fu. You should also stretch for flexibility and eat well and get enough sleep and be nice to your mother, etc.. None of these things are mutually exclusive.
stance training teaches you how to shift your weight into an attack, it also teaches you how to sink your center of gravity physics and gravity apply to this. it also gives you awareness of your body and understanding of these postures.
what does stance training train?1.patience and perseverence.2footwork(since in stance training you hold each stance for 5 mins and alternate stances all totaling out to about an hour and a half.3.internal energy,during stance training your legs get very tired,therefore in order to hold the stance you must learn to relax the muscles in use as much as possible,to relax you must focus on your breathing, once you begin to focus on breathing you sink into deeper levels of concentration,the mind gets calmer and eventally the chi will sink to the navel.
also ordinary work will become easier because you will learn to keepm your back straight and bend your legs. any other questions? p.s. storing is just an analogy to help you understand better. hopefully this arguement has clarified or inspired you to seek the truth in martial training. no hard feelings.
Without getting into the physiology, here- a quick anecdote.
I’ve had the chance to work with a number of prominent ‘internal’ martial artists, including Mike Sigman, Yang Yang, Nick Graceinin, and Ed Hampton (senior student of Vince Black), as well as a people training under those folks.
In terms of pure ‘root’, I couldn’t discern any signficant difference in their ability to ‘ground’ force compared with a a 15 year private student of Rene Latosa’s who I’ve trained with pretty regularly, or Rene Latosa himself. We won’t talk about waist use, softness, or short power, as some of the above I didn’t have my hands on enough to offer comment on meaningfully.
Neither Mr. Latosa, nor his student, did any stance training. All their work was in motion, partner balance checks, and, of course, heavy weapons work.
I’ve done a great deal of stance work in the past, taught a fair number of people, and have come to the conclusion that everything I’ve seen and felt developed in stance work can be gotten faster, with less effort, and by more people with partner work and some assist exercises.
Lol! Eventually someone had to come along and replace Eyebrows. Looks like we have a winner (or two winners). Lucky I’ve gone part-time, 'cause I’m itching to get stuck into this thread.
