In response to years of ridiculous controversy, Master Gin Foon Mark has decided to clear up some of the political problems surrounding Kwong Sai Jook Lum Praying Mantis Kung Fu.
Master Mark has dedicated his life to the preservation and continuation of this system. Many of the two person forms that teach timing and feeling were constructed by Master Mark and his partner, Chin Ho Dun. There is only one true master of his system - Gin foon Mark himself.Master Mark uses a renewable license system for authorizing students to teach his art. Students wishing to teach his art must dedicate themselves to the style by going through the “first Door” {Master Mark}.
They go through a ceremony and are then issued a certificate that is good for three years. After this three year period they must demonstrate that they are still dedicated to the style and have progressed in order to renew the certificate. Teachers without or with an expired certificate are not authorized members of Master Marks system.
This notice also very much applies to anyone who may have had a ceremony with Master Mark in the past, but has no license to teach under his name. Such a person is also not a member of Master Marks association.
All of this sounds like another great marketing plan. Just like distant learning of kung fu from videos. You send your tape in after you learned the form, pay $, and they send you your certificate. All garbage. But the reasonable guy would say " Distant learning allows people that are interested in learning to learn from the comfort of their own homes. It is very flexible and it’s like having your own sifu on tape." That’s a load of sh!t if you ask me.
Yes nimblenuts, but have you read my post?
Does it say anything about tapes? No.
The certificate system applies only to people who are interested in teaching reguardless of how near or far they may be.And they must prove that they are still dedicated to the style and demonstrate that they have progressed. AS IT ALLREADY SAYS IN MY FIRST POST.
If you were familiar with some of the silly political problems Master Mark has had to deal with then you would understand why he wishes to better control those who teach under his name. Just ask the admin of this site about it.
Master Gin Foon Mark has every right to guard his system, by whatever means he deems necessary. WAY too many people try and use his name without his consent. This needs to be dealt with and it looks like he’s trying to do just that.
Of course, there are those that do nothing but sit around on their a$ practicing their brand of idiot judgementalism, but who cares?
I agree whole-heartedly. If he did not use this system folks could complain about lack of quality contol in his lineage. Funny how so many folks think that it’s not considered good to take care of your sifu. Especially when they are making money off of their name and lineage.
>> There is only one true master of his system - Gin foon Mark himself. <<<
This is a very interesting statement when you consider that Lam Sang’s (Gin Foon Mark’s teacher) son is alive and well and teaching the system in NYC. I suspect there might be some disagreement
Is there disagreement that Master Mark is not only his senior, but possesses the Jook Lum altar?? Wasn’t Gin Foon Mark a renowned and established Master before most of y’all were even born? For SOME, before your PARENTS were born? Wasn’t he one of the first to teach authentic kung Fu on the mainland? Why are kids nowadays so…?
Okay. So Gin Foon Mark is the only master of his lineage. As lkf points out, there are other teachers as well. I’d be willing to bet there are other less public teachers here or in hong kong as well.
But then, I’m the sort who cares more about whether a thing works than about lineage. I know that’s not tradition, but if it works a guy can call it Southern Mantis, Northern Mantis, Eastern Pickle Fist, or Constipated Wombat style for all I care. All this political bickering does is make people from outside the mantis system just shake their heads and wonder why everyone’s being so silly instead of practicing.
Dude, you ARE constipated… I know people nowadays respect nothing and view the Chinese martial traditions in a very mercenary way, but if you don’t know d*ck about the problems a leader can have within the Lineage that they have responsibility over, why the heck even post? If you don’t respect the traditions, why even offer an empty opinion? Master Mark has Lam Sang’s altar and the lineage holder accoutrements. He probably(should) owns a copyright to the Jook Lum S. Mantis name.
“If it works use it” is ONE thing, but “If it works, call it anything you want” is absurd and excludes this opinion from any intelligent discussion…
Now THERE is a pet peve of mine, Copywriting a style. What idiocy is this?? Shall we copyright a certain way to breath as well?? A certain way to wipe our rear-ends? certainly one way has to be better than others! Jeez… Whatever happened to the old “So you say you teach XXXXXX!!! Let me see your gung fu!” A beating occurs & one walks away not able to teach that style any more. Honor in the martial arts has gone to hell so to speak because wusses are lawyer happy & care more about what they can get rather than what they can give.
Sorry for the rant & no offence to anyone; This was just building up & ended up here.
Thanks in advance for your tollerance;
-BTL
Too many frauds, cheats, liars, acoundrels. Too many inexperienced people taken in by them. Copyright doesn’t belong to anyone else but the lineage holders. If it weren’t for Gin Foon Mark, no one would even know about S.Mantis. The Jook Lum lineage is his responsibility, and no one has d*ck to say about it.
I’ll never understand why folks insist on posting that they don’t care if it doesn’t affect them directly.
[This message has been edited by MoQ (edited 07-26-2000).]
I really agree with protecting the name of a system. At the same time I also believe that whoever claims to be of a certain pai should be able to back it up with technique and not just be a figure head.
If a Sifu is really good at what he or she does, well then there is no reason to lie about their status, whether they are the “holder” of the system or not. Those who claim false titles are only hiding their lack of skills and are insecure.
It is even worse when senior close door disciples go on to support their Sifu’s immoral behavior when they know it is not right.
Something to think about!!!
Hi lets not forget that there are other lineages of Jook Lum southern mantis Wong Yu Gong Jook Lum in mainland China and Hong Kong and in Great Britan there is also a lineage Lee Ying Sing Jook Lum who is a contempary of Wong Yu Gong and Lam Sang his lineage is in Great Britan and there are 2 students of his in the U.S.A it coud be possible that there might be other lineages that come from Chung Yu Chung.So for anybody to have the copy write name of Jook Lum would be very diffucult because of these other lineages. FIRE HAWK
Gin Foon Mark says he invented the two man training in Southern Mantis. This seems a little odd to me, as two man training is a common facet in Chinese Martial Arts, and I know as a fact that Chu Gar mantis has very distinct two man forms and two man training.
I mean no disrespect, but what kind of two man training did Master Mark invent? I really am just curious, and mean no disresect. (and I know flamers use the same words, so I apologize for the bad monkeys out there.)
With all due respect to all that have posted here. I am very ignorant of south mantis as a style. However, I have seen it performed on stage and at different martail arts events. I also believe it to be a vey powerful system.
My question here is, although Gin Foon Mark is a well-known and respected master, there are other masters such as Henry Poo Yee and Louie Jack Man, Who are also supposed to be students of Lam Sang.
If these three sifus are at all gung fu brothers, can someone share with me there knowledge of these other two masters? Louie Jack Man resides in Philadelphia, were I live, but I have not had the time to visit his school.
I can’t read these insults without putting my two cents in as well.
How dare you people accuse Gin Foon Mark of being more interested in money than in his loyalty to the art. He has been practicing kung fu for almost 80 years, someone wouldn’t hold this much interest in one thing only to sell out after this long.
Gin Foon Mark is “the” master of Kwong Sai Jook Lum Praying Mantis Kung Fu and he has the alter to prove it. The reason he has to have a renewable system of licensing is because after he is gone the style will be gone as well unless he plans on passing on his title of master, which is not likely since his best student still doesn’t know the complete style and Master Mark is fading. If he didn’t have this term for licensing teaching, then there would be too many people who don’t even know the entire style teaching under his name after he is gone. In this case, even if Gin Foon Mark did pass on his title as master, the title would be nothing more than that; a title.
It should only be up to the master whether or not someone should be allowed to teach their style, and in the above case the new master would have no say. The title of master is, and should be, the only real permanent license to teach. Any other teaching that has not been approved by the master is a mockery to the style; the style that Gin Foon Mark has dedicated his whole life to.
Gin Foon Mark is also the only reason we have this style in the US. The other students of this style would not teach to anyone who was not chinese, but Gin Foon Mark thought that all people were equal and should have a right to this knowledge. This man, who is praised in china, was willing to teach Americans who have no idea how important he is. He entrusted us with his life’s work, and all you can do is insult him.
Gin Foon Mark can not be expected to dishonor his teachers and the entire style by just letting anyone teach incorrectly, what has been built and preserved over so many generations.
